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Master Sergeant
Posts: 209

Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

  I don't use a lot of combind arms in games I play, mostly cause I play with people that don't like other units, but also because I'm always afraid of horrible botches, or bad uses of assets I'm not familiar with.
  Been having idea's how ever, of using Karnov UR Transport's, or maybe some other modified heavy VTOL transport, to take battle armor around the battle field, like Vietnam Huey's.  Far as I can tell, long as the battle armor has JJ's, you don't even have to land the VTOL to deploy them, which brings visions of dropping a squad of battle armor into the hex of a battlemaster.   
  Those with previous experience know the pit falls, difficulty's, or possible rules violations for this?
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Warrant Officer
Posts: 677

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

I've been playing 'round with this idea for a while now.  The issues that I've had thus far (not a whole lot of playtesting:  most of my games are in the pre-Clan era when "Life is cheap.  Battlemechs aren't," so take this with a grain of salt) are as follows:

1.)MP:  it requires 1 MP to pick up the BA and 1 MP to drop them (so make sure that your VTOL units have plenty of movement).

2.)Your BA can't actually do anything during the first round that they've been dropped off (make sure that they're near the action but under cover).  Ideally, they'll enter action during the second round...but, y'see, there was this guy named Murphy...

3.)VTOLs are relatively easy to break; assuming that an enemy actually manages to hit your VTOL, it's likely to go down (this becomes worse in the era of pulse lasers, LB-X autocannon, and targeting computers--a.k.a. the era when you'll be able to use battlearmor).

4.)There just aren't that many VTOL designs out there that have enough cargo capacity to carry a full squad of BA.  The Karnov is one, yes, but I can't think of a second one off of the top of my head.

Now, I'm not saying that it doesn't work.  It does; you've just got to choose your DZs, VTOLs, and targets wisely. 

Another way to do this is with omnivehicles and omnimechs; both can carry BA (heck, the pesky crunchies actually provide an erstaz "armor"...not that the BA troopers would really like to be viewed that way) and are likely to be better-armed and armored than a VTOL.  They're not usually as fast, though...

As with all tactics, your milage may vary.  I enjoy it for the sheer coolness factor, but, then, most of my games aren't really about winning...
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Warrant Officer
Posts: 767

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam



  Best move ever was landing a few squads of Sloth BA on the same hill as a cocky player's madcat set up for sniping. the guy brought his own map with a big mountain/hill on it and parked himself up there. He was so sure he was going to win that he was running his mouth. At least till i landed the sloths right next to him so he couldn't escape anywhere he went. Those little guys went to town on hip and left him without a gyro. pulled the sloths out and left him laying there.

  THat wasnt the end of it though. He tried to find ways to shoot at people so we smoked the area. When we noticed he was determined to bring that madcat into play,even though he couldn't, I started shelling him with artillery since we were just mopping up the rest of his units. That guy was so red in the face.....it was awesome. Cool

      Other games I used infantry with various weapons as well as a lrm carrying mech to hold down a section of the board. The infantry prevented someone from running down that side,effectively covering our left flank as we thrusted up the right side. The mech layed down smoke and minefields. Later on some of the infantry were used to spot for indirect lrm fire.


  I'm glad to see that L3 vehicle rules came into L2 as they increased the vehicles's effectiveness as unit and as a choice. Using vehicles and maxtech became standard in our games quickly. Everyone tried their hand and found that while not as universally great as a mech they have their advantages. Sometimes a hinderence is an advantage such as L1 hills blocking the line of sight of a tank and of the tank to a mech. Especially when that vehicle is packing an ac20 or clusters of srms and you want to cut off a path that the hostile mech wants to use. It may never get a shot at the mech but the mech and anyone else trying to pass is under his control. some of my best units, per game, were those that never fired a shot.


wont even go into the artillery and aircraft..... Cool Cool
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Major
Posts: 4609
"Six or Styx"

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

You can get away with dropping into a hot zone, though your suits will probably take casualites without being able to reply for a turn.  As a rule your probably better off using air mobile troops to take and hold area of the field that will be important but arn't currently occupied by enemy forces.

Picking up from a hot zone is a whole different kettle of fish as your VTOLs will have to remain stationary for a turn.  You will take heavy casualities if you try this.  Though the alternative may well be worse.


The usual rules from VTOLs apply regardless.  Get in, get out, do not hang arround the LZ. 

Challenger
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 3174
Justin and Natasha looking for WoB's

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

Air Cav works you just need to take care.

as has been pointed out any infantry (foot or BA) that is droped off can not take any other actions that turn .... so keep them safe and thing ahead a turn  Wink

also keep the VTOL moving. they take hits better but FlaK kills  Tongue

one group I play with has been moving more to combined arms and have found that they do work very well.

gunships that work real well are the Hawk Moth and Warrior for IS forces and the Donar for clan. they all have a long range weapon
the AC/2 on the Warrior H7 makes for a lot of fun as you plink the poor slob at range with 2 point hits ... the head hits are real fun  Evil.
snipe players a few times with the AC/2 and they will learn to keep an eye on that pest.
the Warrior 7C is real good at keeping BA honest .... the LRM 10 most times will chip away at 2 troopers at a time  Azn. you want battle field control use thunder rounds ... 10 point mine field almost any place you can want them.

the other gunships have a place on the field but need to blind side the other guy or they are just FlaK bait  Tongue. short range weapons mean you are in range  Cheesy for them too.
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Lieutenant
Posts: 1045

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

Our GM tried to airdrop a lot of troops on us...   I spotted the Anhur and warmed up the LB.  It was dead before he had a change to land and get the troops out.  Ahh, good times.
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Captain
Posts: 1827

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

Our GM tried to airdrop a lot of troops on us...   I spotted the Anhur and warmed up the LB.  It was dead before he had a change to land and get the troops out.  Ahh, good times.
There are canonical examples of such. See TRO/HMVee entries about Ferret. Better drop troops off before going into effective range... unless VTOL has some decent cover by terrain and/or smoke
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Colonel
Posts: 15156
Emo Elvis is watching you pee...

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

I love airmobile tactics. You do it right, and you gain the ability to place a sizeable force anywhere you want, just about anytime you want. There are some downsides to the stratagem though, but most are just things you have to be careful about, and can work around.

The ride: The weakest link in an airmobile deployment is most often the transport. Aircraft and choppers may be fast, but they're notoriously fragile, especially since the ones we're talking about have obviously given up a lot of mass to cargo space that could otherwise go to guns or armor. Durable troop haulers do exist, but most of them are very expensive, so it's difficult to bring one into a balanced fight without compromising the firepower of your fighting units(these haulers achieve this blend or durability and heavy price tag by being called DropShips). For smaller stuff, you're advised to either plan your route to avoid AA, or supress it first(difficult, when almost anything in the game can shoot at you).

The delay: The biggest threat to airmobile ops is during the drop-off phase. Choppers often have to land, which makes them horribly vulnerable to fire. Fortunately, jump troops can simply leap out at no risk to themselves, and with TacOps, any other troop that is also anti-'mech capable can do the same for very low risk. However, regardless of how you disembarked, there still remains the fact that infantry can do nothing during the turn they deploy, creating a window in which they are extremely vulnerable(especially since troops that had to get out of a landed transport will almost always be in clear terrain during this delay, which is just begging for a slaughter). The solution to this is to drop your troops off behind cover, be it hills, woods, or buildings. Even if the chopper is still airborne during the drop, bring it low enough to also be behind the cover. Getting onto the ground safely is moot if your squad has a burning chopper dropped on top of them before they have a chance to do anything. Also, seeing your ride home magically transform into a fireball is very bad for morale.

The troops: Unless you're using DropShips as your Huey stand-ins, odds are your airmobile forces will be composed almost solely of infantry or battle armor, with all the weaknesses of both. Sure they're a powerful force in sufficient numbers, but the Davion Assault Guards they ain't, so don't expect them to do the same jobs. Once on the ground, your troops will usually be slow, short-ranged, and individual units will likely be weak. Don't expect them to cross half the map, smash fortresses, or go toe-to-toe with Daishis. Your many weapons may include surprise, fear, and La-Z-Boys, but those won't drop a 'mech without intelligent tactics as well. Airmobile drops are best used to quickly grab and keep a hold of fixed objectives or strategic terrain, rapidly opening up new flanks in a battle, or for surprise assaults on targets with juicy, unprotected middles, liek supply bases, or open-air fortresses.
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Captain
Posts: 1827

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

The troops: Unless you're using DropShips as your Huey stand-ins, odds are your airmobile forces will be composed almost solely of infantry or battle armor, with all the weaknesses of both.
Karnov UR is reported to lift off entire 'Mech. With 30 ton mass, Karnov UR can lift at least 30 ton cargo, which can be 'Mech or vehicle. Therefore maximum load for Karnov UR Transport is 2 foot platoons AND 'Mech or vehicle up to 30 tons. If we go to house rules, Karnov UR without cargo would lift off 36 tons! That's enough to lift off Hunter, many powerful hovercrafts, or Wolfhound! Imagine possibilities of fleet of Karnov URs carrying not just infantry, but also Scorpions, Hunters, hovercrafts, and 'Mechs! But without house ruling, jump capable 'Mech can't be just dropped off. Otherwise Karnov UR would just zoom 7 hexes in, and drop off Jump Infantry Platoon and Urbie of DOOM! Evil
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Colonel
Posts: 15156
Emo Elvis is watching you pee...

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

True, but remember that under the current ruleset, vehciles and 'mechs might be carried in empty cargo, but the time it takes to unsecure and offload them is far too long to take place in combat. I don't remember if TacOps or StratOps have optional rules that change this, but in TW, the only way you can offload a vee or 'mech during combat is if it was carried in specialized 'Mech or Vehicle bays, which are usually only found in DropShips.

My group does indeed use a house rule allowing the empty cargo to be used this way in combat, but for the sake of advising others I was sticking to official rules. After all, it's kind of hard to recommend tactics if they're based on house rules that another group may not allow.
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Captain
Posts: 1827

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

True, but remember that under the current ruleset, vehciles and 'mechs might be carried in empty cargo, but the time it takes to unsecure and offload them is far too long to take place in combat. I don't remember if TacOps or StratOps have optional rules that change this, but in TW, the only way you can offload a vee or 'mech during combat is if it was carried in specialized 'Mech or Vehicle bays, which are usually only found in DropShips.
If I could smack you with TW right now...

Total Warfare, Cargo Carriers, page 261
Quote
It may make no weapon or physical attacks for that turn and three subsequent turns (meaning it cannot expend any MP in those three subsequent turns) for each 20 tons of cargo (or fraction thereof). A friendly infantry unit must be present in the same hex for the duration of loading.
So there! If Karnov UR can lift off 'Mech wreckage, by all sense it should be able to lift off functioning 'Mech. But if we want go by the rules, it would take 3 turns for Karnov UR and infantry platoon to unstrap 20 ton 'Mech (6 turns for anything heavier) even though 'Mech would have all arm & hand actuators (such as Stinger).
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Colonel
Posts: 15156
Emo Elvis is watching you pee...

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

No smacking is required, I'll be happy if I'm proven wrong. I was hoping to find a loophole around the must-be-in-a-bay rule, this just might be it. What are the rules for unloading said cargo, and do they supercede this?

Quote from: Total War, page 90
Additionally, the carrying Small Craft or DropShip must contain an appropriate bay for the type of unit mounting, as shown on the Small Craft/DropShip Bay Table. If a Small Craft or DropShip does not contain an appropriate bay that a unit can use, that unit cannot mount the Small Craft or DropShip; as with the bay doors, the type of bays each Small Craft or DropShip mounts will be noted in either the unit’s technical readout or record sheet game stats.

And this?

Quote from: Total War, page 207
Unless specifically noted otherwise, units use the same rules to mount and dismount from Support Vehicles as for mounting and dismounting from grounded aerospace units (see Carrying Units, p. 89, in the Aerospace Movement section). The number of cargo doors and the type of bays a particular
Support Vehicle may have will appear in the unit’s technical readout or record sheet game statistics.
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 3174
Justin and Natasha looking for WoB's

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

I see that you have over looked the real fun tag team for Karnov transport  Evil

for the 3025 Karnov it is 1 Savannah Master and a squad of infantry
for the 3058 Karnov it the Savannah Master and 2 squads of infantry

and it all fits in to the cargo bay  Azn

the Savannah Master makes the fast brake and gets the other side to go for it and the infantry squads get into good spotter locations and calls in the rain  Afro
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Captain
Posts: 1827

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

No smacking is required, I'll be happy if I'm proven wrong.
Then read the Cargo Carriers part from page 261
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Major
Posts: 3477

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

If I could smack you with TW right now...

Total Warfare, Cargo Carriers, page 261So there! If Karnov UR can lift off 'Mech wreckage, by all sense it should be able to lift off functioning 'Mech. But if we want go by the rules, it would take 3 turns for Karnov UR and infantry platoon to unstrap 20 ton 'Mech (6 turns for anything heavier) even though 'Mech would have all arm & hand actuators (such as Stinger).

Be reasonable Matti.  3 turns is 30 seconds.  That's pretty damn fast considering the mech is going to be laying flat in the hold and no pilot in their right mind is going to have lifted off without it lashed down securely.  Arm actuators wouldn't do anyting for you in that situation since the mech's arms are likely bound down by its sides.

-Jackmc
Punisher of Odessa
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 4849
Recruiting for Cincinnati CBT Campaign!

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

So...is there a compelling argument against flying over a battlefield with a Heavy VTOL or DropShip and unloading Kangas?  You can't unload a Mech except by landing the VTOL (since the Mech has to stand to get out the door), or via Drop-pod...but a Kanga can just drive out the back door and jump to the ground...

Which is a really awesome visual, may I add.

Taurian Bob: "Ho-lee shit Bubba!  It's rainin' tanks!" 
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Captain
Posts: 1827

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

You can't unload a Mech except by landing the VTOL (since the Mech has to stand to get out the door)
I thought 'Mechs just hang in cables when transported by Karnov UR Huh?
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Captain
Posts: 2639

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

I thought 'Mechs just hang in cables when transported by Karnov UR Huh?

I believe they can do both.

I love Airmobile infantry and BA tactics by the way. But with the Caveat that they just don't work on smaller maps/tables.
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 3174
Justin and Natasha looking for WoB's

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

I love Airmobile infantry and BA tactics by the way. But with the Caveat that they just don't work on smaller maps/tables.

OH so true  Afro
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Colonel
Posts: 15156
Emo Elvis is watching you pee...

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

Then read the Cargo Carriers part from page 261

Interesting, though I'm  extremely leery of carrying anything externally if I can help it...

Is there anything prohibiting active combat units from being carried this way?
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Captain
Posts: 1827

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

Is there anything prohibiting active combat units from being carried this way?
Only problematic thing would be with stacking when using infantry to load/unload. But in that case we could go by the way of the Large Support Vehicle, and have infantry doing loading in adjacent hex.
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Colonel
Posts: 15156
Emo Elvis is watching you pee...

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

I recall aero units(even large support aeros) being prohibited from carrying external cargo, but I can see someone using large and fast support hovers or WiGEs to do this...
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Master Sergeant
Posts: 209

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

  Reading over some of the stuff here and thinking how to take it one further.  With out much to go on in the stock VTOL heavy transport, range, think it would be worth while to make a custom?
  I'm thinking maybe mount a LRM-5 to throw some smoke in the hex it's going to land (or preferably, hover, and boot out cargo) in the next round, or if weight get's tight, a OS SRM-2.  Also potential other uses, like if it's availble, to throw down flare rounds during a night battle.   I think trying to use the launcher as a weapon would just be a invitation to have your VTOL blown away. 
   Addition of a MG, or small laser might also be nice, but got to keep tonnage for other, non-damage, performance abbilitys.

   Watch out Mechwarriors, Guerilla's in the myst.
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Captain
Posts: 2639

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

  Reading over some of the stuff here and thinking how to take it one further.  With out much to go on in the stock VTOL heavy transport, range, think it would be worth while to make a custom?
  I'm thinking maybe mount a LRM-5 to throw some smoke in the hex it's going to land in the next round, or if weight get's tight, a OS SRM-2.  Also potential other uses, like if it's availble, to throw down flare rounds during a night battle.   I think trying to use the launcher as a weapon would just be a invitation to have your VTOL blown away. 
   Addition of a MG, or small laser might also be nice, but got to keep tonnage for other, non-damage, performance abbilitys.

I'd tend to avoid weapons and just load on as much speed, armor and ECM as I could. Remember that your goal is not to expose your troop transports to direct fire if you can help it. So the design challenge becomes how much speed, and armor can you fit around a 4 ton cargo bay (or 6 if you're WoB).



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Master Sergeant
Posts: 209

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

  The speed factor and armor is definatly up there for importance, just looking for things that will give me good point value for defence, while not makeing it a target.  Considered ECM as it's the same weight as a OS SRM-2, but would think a floating ECM bubble would make for a much higher priority target than a smoke blower (not to mention much more costly).
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Captain
Posts: 2639

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

Maybe. For Deterrent punch Rocket launchers are a good option.
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Colonel
Posts: 15156
Emo Elvis is watching you pee...

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

With out much to go on in the stock VTOL heavy transport, range, think it would be worth while to make a custom?

What's your definition of a VTOL heavy transport, out of curiosity? I've seen some REALLY heavy VTOL transports in canon...
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Captain
Posts: 1827

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

  Reading over some of the stuff here and thinking how to take it one further.  With out much to go on in the stock VTOL heavy transport, range, think it would be worth while to make a custom?
How about this?


What's your definition of a VTOL heavy transport, out of curiosity? I've seen some REALLY heavy VTOL transports in canon...
Like one that carries duke Ricol's Marauder in novel Decision at Thunder Rift? Not bad novel, but there are few things that can't be taken seriously: 'Mech shoulder rolls anyone?
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Colonel
Posts: 15156
Emo Elvis is watching you pee...

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

I was talking in terms of precise size and carrying capacity. There's a lot of canon support VTOLs that could sling a Marauder.
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Captain
Posts: 1827

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

There's a lot of canon support VTOLs that could sling a Marauder.
Heh, ok... I'll get Vehicle Annex next friday and see what it has to offer Smiley
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Colonel
Posts: 15156
Emo Elvis is watching you pee...

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

V/STOL aeros with 70-ton internal capacities...WiGEs with 100+ ton capacities...naval vessels with kiloton capacities...the cargo potential in that book is endless. Afro
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8401
Da me mas Gasolina

Re: Combind arms tactic's, Vietnam

On a more serious note...

a tactic I like is to race hovers or VTOLs into an enemy's flank or rear and drop BA behind a hill, so that they are covered during the one turn.  If you're sneeky you can get pretty damn close, or you can drop a ways away and march in.  But especaly with hovers, doing things out of sight can be a nice trick. 

The best part is, the BA don't even really need to fight; just knowing that they are around can change enemy tactics enough for your line units to make headway, as the BA suddenly appear out of seemingly no where.
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