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Korisu
Recruit Posts: 8 
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| The thread on Steiner design philosophies got me thinking about how each faction differs in its tactics. What are the general stereotypes that define each house's strategy and tactics? Maybe I am just not up on my reading but I can't seem to find good info on this. I mean the clans fight significantly different than the Inner Sphere but what about Davion fighting different than Kurita? Certainly there has to be some overlying philosophy that is reinforced through out each house's particular military. I guess what I am looking for is Davion forces perfer combined arms, Marik forces tend to draw out battles in long campaigns, Liao goes for decisive major battles, etc. Even discussion on the different philosophies behind their favored mechs would be welcomed. I guess I am looking for why the factions favor the mechs and designs that they do and how do they tend to use them. |
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Arkansas Warrior
Lieutenant Colonel Posts: 9909 Men fight most fiercely in defense of their Home.
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Davion-Combined arms with an emphasis on Heavy Cavalry. Often preferring designs based around either autoncannons(Enforcer, Centurion, Jagermech, Rifleman, RACs, etc) or Laser Boats (WHM-6D, MAD-3D, JVN-10F, BLR-1D, RFL-4D, PXH-1D and 3D, etc)
Kurita-Was an emphasis on single unit duelling, noted as the closest thing the IS had to zellbrigen. Now C3 means teamwork is a watchword. Kurita mechs tend to carry a lot of PPCs, MRMs, and SRMs(especially Streaks), and to be faster than you might expect for their size(excepting the Panther). Mechs have always predominated, Kurita isn't much for combined arms.
Marik-Ranged weapons galore, with LRMs and LGRs predominating especially. Also UACs and ER and Pulse lasers. Combined with the fact that Marik machines are often fairly fast, this lead to a strategy of keeping the range open for as long as possible, then rushing in to knife range.
Steiner- Big guns on big mechs. Gausses and Class 20 ACs on Assualt mechs most especially. Though before '50 they used a lot of missiles too(witness the Zeus and Battlemaster-1S and -3S, and the Salamander). The have some excellent lights(especially 'slugger' Lights like the Wolfhound, Talon, Spector, and Razorback), but these tend to be shunned by the sterotypical Lyran General. No real tactics excet the "Wall of Steel"(ie, frontal assault with large numbers of assault mechs)
Liao-Stealth armor, heat weapons, and artillery. They also use a lot of combined arms, but out of necessity rather than choice, most times. Something of a High-Low mix, with a few hyper advanced mechs backed by masses of peasant infantry and cheap-but-effective vehicles(witness the Po). |
Recipient of ColBosch's Pedant of the Month Award for February 2007, for Reply #27 here. 'shovels we have, shovels we will use, bayonet charge or not.'-Beachhead1973 FGC Personas: Galaxy Commander Carolus Magnus, Rho Galaxy, Clan Ghost Bear Field Marshal Nathaniel Hasek, Capellan March, Federated Suns.
Last Edit by Arkansas Warrior
23 Apr, 2008, 12:42:29 pm
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MadCapellan
Guerrilla Mapmaker Colonel Posts: 13580 I feel a wreck without my little Capellan girls... 
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The Capellan Confederation operates BattleMechs which fit into three basic categories: Stand-off Snipers, Cavalry, & Skirmishers. Stand-off Snipers are BattleMechs, often equipped with Stealth Armor, which typically set up in good firing positions in cover and engage the enemy at long range with weapons such as ER PPCs, ER Large Lasers, & Gauss Rifles. If LRM racks are present, they are often used to lay large minefields with Thunder-Augmented Missiles. Whilst the Snipers are firing, the Skirmishers jump into the midst of the enemy and sow chaos, leaping back and forth and firing at pointblank range, keeping a high movement modifier. Finally, Cavalry charges the enemy's weakpoint and obliterates it with powerful close range fusilades of medium lasers, LB-20X, and physical attacks, often backed by Arrow IV Homing Missiles. Aerospace Fighters often back up the BattleMechs with directed strikes against ground targets, whilst Infantry & Tracked Vehicles attack from hidden positions and Hovertanks reinforce the Cavalry. Because of their emphasis on sniping and rapid, powerful strikes, the Capellan Confederation prefers the ambush.
The Federated Suns is primarily about mobility warfare. A good 75% of their designs fall into the 5/8/x movement curve, and most carry powerful AC & Laser direct fire weaponry. This leads Davion forces operate in close formation so as to allow the maximum number of BattleMechs to combine their fire, as their forces make rapid strikes at strategic targets. If the defense stiffens, they will either use their superior mobility to simply relocate or bring forward their slower, more powerful assets to smash their way through, as they also have a large force of powerful 4/6 and 3/5 attackers. Common support assets include vast numbers of VTOLs which screen the BattleMech forces, large numbers of relatively inexpensive wheeled vehicles for garrison duty, a small corp of powerful heavy tanks to provide powerful firing platforms in case of a breakthrough, and mechanized infantry to exploit it.
I just described strategies used by the Free Worlds League earlier on the thread about their Assault 'Mechs. The Free Worlds League also operates a mobility warfare strategy, much like the Federated Suns, except instead of attempting to overrun their opponents in a cavalry fashion, the Free Worlds League favors a running gun battle, where BattleMechs engage their opponents with ER energy weapons, LRMs, and Light Gauss Rifles from beyond the range at which their opponents can effectively return fire, and then fall back to keep the range open. Continuous use of such a strategy slowly wears down the opponent to the point that Free Worlds League forces can rush forward and use their large number of massed Medium Lasers and SRMs to shatter what remains of the enemy at point blank range. Whilst they make large use of Infantry & Armor units, those fielded by the Free Worlds League tend to be of the cheap, expendable type, used as a speed bump to prevent an enemy force from closing with FWLM sniper units. On the other hand, the Free Worlds League has a very powerful Aerospace Arm, and you can expect powerful strafing runs from their Aerospace units.
The Lyrans have always been famous for their "Wall of Steel", and that has not changed. Primarily, Steiner forces are dominated by Assault 'Mechs and Assault 'Mechs either standing their ground or slowly advancing, using Heavy & Standard Gauss & ER PPCs to pound their opponents to pieces. The part of Lyran forces which are rarely acknowledged are their large numbers of fast, pulse laser armed Medium BattleMechs which perform a cavalry role, striking at the flanks and dispatching enemy units whose armor has been breached by the big guns of their Assault 'Mechs.
The Draconis Combine probably has the most altered combat strategy of any great house. Originally, their forces favored large swarms of fast Light 'Mechs and Hovercraft, which attempted to wear down the enemy, after which Heavy 'Mechs would rush forward and finish the enemy off. Now days, whilst they still have a large preponderance of disposable hovercraft performing the same screening and harasser duties, most BattleMech forces are linked using the C³ network. Now, the fast light 'Mechs skirmish in close proximity of the enemy to allow their larger brethren to target them with unerring accuracy. The vast majority of their designs are highly mobile, and most of the larger designs are carry only large guns, saving weight on secondaries when they are never intended to close to point blank range with the enemy in the first place. |
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Nightward
Lieutenant Posts: 1528 COWER, BRIEF MOR... UH... HO HO HO
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most BattleMech forces are linked using the C³ network.
You'd think so, wouldn't you? Apparently, however, the DCMS as unable to manufacture enough C3 systems or convince enough warriors to play nicely together, leaving their C3 deployment stalled.
The AFFS deploys a similar amount of C3 units, all of which are better designed than what the Combine uses.
So. Much. Hate. |
"Are you Australians always like this?" "What, awesome? Yes." *** I am working on ways to kill using words on an internet page. The results thus far are encouraging: About 90% of what has been said is confusing to me, but this made me laugh until I squirted hamburger out of my nose (and that hurt). Now armed with a FactBat.
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Crunch
Captain Posts: 1705
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You'd think so, wouldn't you? Apparently, however, the DCMS as unable to manufacture enough C3 systems or convince enough warriors to play nicely together, leaving their C3 deployment stalled.
The AFFS deploys a similar amount of C3 units, all of which are better designed than what the Combine uses.
So. Much. Hate.
Misplaced hate too. I'll include the numbers for master units below, but its pretty clear that house Kurita has much better access to C3 master designs than House Davion. In fact every C3 master mech Davion can take is also on the Kurita faction list.
What I was actually going to say before the mythology started was to remember that, while the DC may not CA much, they are one of the chief users of mech mounted Arrow IV in the IS. Combined with the relatively heavy use of C3 and Tag units this means that their mech footprint has equivalent effective artillery support to a CA force the same size.
Also if the Combines BA designs are any guide it looks like they're adopting that kind of CA quickly, which makes sense given the fact that they have the highest percentage of Omnis in any inner sphere force. Combined with their great fast tanks with big guns this means that a Kuritan general who actually uses all his troops can be a nightmare.
Mechs with C3 Masters by weight class.
Assault - Davion has access to 2, Kurita has access to 11 including both of those Davion has access to.
Davion- Gunslinger 2ERD, Sunder OB
Kurita- Atlas CM, Battlemaster CM, Battlemaster K3, Gunslinger 2ERD, Hatamoto Chi 27T, Hatamato Hi CM, Katanna CM, Naginata C3A, Naginata C3B, Sunder OB, Tai Sho 7S
Heavy- Davion only has access to the Avatar C from the IS general list, Kurita gets the Shujenja and the only design Davion has access too.
Davion- Avatar OC
Kurita- Shugenja 7D, Avatar OC
Medium- Kurita gets 3 Davion none.
Davion- None
Kurita- Bishamon 4K, Komodo 3C, Damiyo 5K
Light-None
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And if anyone asks, the Challenger's initials do not mean Main Battle Tank. It actually spells out to Monstrous Beatdown Truckzilla.
Weirdo
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Nightward
Lieutenant Posts: 1528 COWER, BRIEF MOR... UH... HO HO HO
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Also if the Combines BA designs are any guide it looks like they're adopting that kind of CA quickly, which makes sense given the fact that they have the highest percentage of Omnis in any inner sphere force. Combined with their great fast tanks with big guns this means that a Kuritan general who actually uses all his troops can be a nightmare.
The Combine's Battle Armour lags behind every other Inner Sphere power. Raiden Armour is OK, but Kage Armour is hands down the worst second-generation power armour out there thanks to the sole weapon per platoon it gets. Kanazuchi armour is nice, but you need good APC use or hidden unit rules (or leave it bodyguard your LRM Carriers/Artillery Support) in order to really get anything out of it. I've yet to use Void armour, but at least it's better than Kage.
As far as deploying Battle Armour goes, the Combine deploys fewer than everyone aside from the Capellan Confederation. Per the FM, many units refuse assignment of Battle Armour assets or misuse them, which leads to a poor perception of their armoured troops.
Admittedly Kage DEST teams are pretty much demonic, but we only get to see them in fiction, not the board game.
Misplaced hate too. I'll include the numbers for master units below, but its pretty clear that house Kurita has much better access to C3 master designs than House Davion. In fact every C3 master mech Davion can take is also on the Kurita faction list.
Access to? Yes. Power/effectiveness of designs? House Davion's are better. Then look at the C3 Slave designs the AFFS uses. RACturion, JVN-11D, their Marauders... hell, even the Panther TC/C3 upgrade is a freakin' Davion design. Lame. The power of C3 lies not with the Master 'Mech, but with the units it slaves to, where Davion's designs completely pummel the Combine.
The Combine should be the premier user of C3 systems in the Inner Sphere, but due to the focus of Record Sheet books and Tech Readouts on House Davion, House Steiner, House Marik, and House Liao, they were just left in the dust in terms of introducing new 'Mechs and C3 upgrades. Their options are much more limited, and much less effective, than those across the border. |
"Are you Australians always like this?" "What, awesome? Yes." *** I am working on ways to kill using words on an internet page. The results thus far are encouraging: About 90% of what has been said is confusing to me, but this made me laugh until I squirted hamburger out of my nose (and that hurt). Now armed with a FactBat.
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Crunch
Captain Posts: 1705
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The Combine's Battle Armour lags behind every other Inner Sphere power. Raiden Armour is OK, but Kage Armour is hands down the worst second-generation power armour out there thanks to the sole weapon per platoon it gets. Kanazuchi armour is nice, but you need good APC use or hidden unit rules (or leave it bodyguard your LRM Carriers/Artillery Support) in order to really get anything out of it. I've yet to use Void armour, but at least it's better than Kage.
As far as deploying Battle Armour goes, the Combine deploys fewer than everyone aside from the Capellan Confederation. Per the FM, many units refuse assignment of Battle Armour assets or misuse them, which leads to a poor perception of their armoured troops.
Admittedly Kage DEST teams are pretty much demonic, but we only get to see them in fiction, not the board game.
Considering the emphasis on Arrow IV on board arty I actually thought the 4 jump TAG Kage was pretty scary. I won't tell you how to run your faction though. I've had it used effectively against me a number of times.
Access to? Yes. Power/effectiveness of designs? House Davion's are better. Then look at the C3 Slave designs the AFFS uses. RACturion, JVN-11D, their Marauders... hell, even the Panther TC/C3 upgrade is a freakin' Davion design. Lame. The power of C3 lies not with the Master 'Mech, but with the units it slaves to, where Davion's designs completely pummel the Combine.
The Combine should be the premier user of C3 systems in the Inner Sphere, but due to the focus of Record Sheet books and Tech Readouts on House Davion, House Steiner, House Marik, and House Liao, they were just left in the dust in terms of introducing new 'Mechs and C3 upgrades. Their options are much more limited, and much less effective, than those across the border.
The power of a C3 lance depends on all of the units acting together effectively. House Davion only has access to 3 designs that carry C3 Masters. For the most part those Davion C3 slaves are wastes of weight unless you're taking a Gunslinger, Sunder or Avatar.
As for Slaves. Sure Davion has the D5 Centurion, the 2D1 Stealth and the omni configs, that's all we have in the medium category. You have 3 to 4 times the number of slave designs. Now I'm not going to argue design for design with you, but if you're completely dismissing your own list which includes the Pheonix Hawk 7K and Komodo I have to disagree. Even in the case of C3 slaves the DC has a huge advantage in number and variety of designs and at least a rub in quality. |
And if anyone asks, the Challenger's initials do not mean Main Battle Tank. It actually spells out to Monstrous Beatdown Truckzilla.
Weirdo
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Jellico
Lieutenant Colonel Posts: 6419
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Their options are much more limited, and much less effective, than those across the border.
I strongly suggest you have a look at the more recent record sheets. While your statement may have been true after TRO3067, the Revision TROs and PPR have offered a wide array of new varients, many retconed back into the 60s. Total Warfare OTOH finally gives the Combine the fire power it needs to match the FS thanks to the liberal adoption of modern PPC systems, DHS and C3. |
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MadCapellan
Guerrilla Mapmaker Colonel Posts: 13580 I feel a wreck without my little Capellan girls...
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You'd think so, wouldn't you? Apparently, however, the DCMS as unable to manufacture enough C3 systems or convince enough warriors to play nicely together, leaving their C3 deployment stalled.
The AFFS deploys a similar amount of C3 units, all of which are better designed than what the Combine uses.
Either you're waaaay out of date on your record sheets, or you have a whack sense of what's good and common. I can't go through HMP without scrolling past at least twenty designs the Dracs worked up for C³. Without even trying to hard, I just pulled up the following list of canon Kurita C³ slave designs, none of them the old 3050 style "we dropped a medium laser and wedged it in" variants either. I'm sure there are others that I just missed as well, but their are some significantly good 'Mechs here.
HER-4K Hermes
HM-2 Hitman
SDR-7KC Spider
JR7-C2 Jenner
JR7-C3 Jenner
SDR-9KC Venom
CMA-C Chimera
WTH-K Whitworth
HCT-5K Hatchetman
KIM-2C Komodo
PXH-7K Phoenix Hawk
TSN-C3 Tessen
TBT-9K Trebuchet
KTO-22 Kintaro
WVR-9K Wolverine
DRG-7K Grand Dragon
HEL-C Helios
BMB-14K Bombardier
CPLT-K4 Catapult
CPLT-K5 Catapult
CRD-5K Crusader
NJT-2 Ninjato
NJT-3 Ninjato
ARC-9K Archer
DAI-02 Daikyu
DAI-03 Daikyu
GHR-7K Grasshopper
WHM-8K Warhammer
THS-4S Thanatos
HTM-28T Hatamoto-Chi
OBK-M11 Obakemono
CRK-5003-CJ Katana
MAL-3R Mauler
NG-C3C Naginata
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MadCapellan
Guerrilla Mapmaker Colonel Posts: 13580 I feel a wreck without my little Capellan girls...
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... hell, even the Panther TC/C3 upgrade is a freakin' Davion design.
Actually, per TRO: 3050 Upgrades, it's a Kurita design. |
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Nightward
Lieutenant Posts: 1528 COWER, BRIEF MOR... UH... HO HO HO
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Either you're waaaay out of date on your record sheets, or you have a whack sense of what's good and common. I can't go through HMP without scrolling past at least twenty designs the Dracs worked up for C³. Without even trying to hard, I just pulled up the following list of canon Kurita C³ slave designs, none of them the old 3050 style "we dropped a medium laser and wedged it in" variants either. I'm sure there are others that I just missed as well, but their are some significantly good 'Mechs here.
A number of those are built around single heat sinks and/or contain some pretty dubious design choices.
The Spider carries a standard Medium and a Medium Pulse, and commits the cardinal sin of having up to 8 heat points for movement and another 7 for its weapons whilst using single heat sinks. Let's cross the border and have a look at its Davion competitor, the Javelin-11D. OK, so it's slower, but it gets Double Heat Sinks and a targeting computer. Wowee. Combine Engineering at its finest. Way to design a 'Mech, guys.
Although I understand that the Spider has a heavy engine and its primary purpose is getting in so that the range everyone else is firing from is low, the Javelin is a highly effective solo fighter on top of its ability to do the same. The Hitman should also be on DHS, but isn't.
I also fail to grasp what makes the Phoenix Hawk-7K such a great design. 9 Jump is not bad, but it's a waste of a good 6 tons that could have gone on weapons- you could loose the Snub, slap on a HPPC with another ER Medium, and add a Heat Sink. If you went to an XL Engine, you could even look at MASC or a Targeting Computer. For what the Combine is looking at from the Phoenix Hawk, a Pulse/TC version would be just as good (you could even grab the -3PL and replace its ER Smalls with a C3 Slave). But for just five tons more, the FedSuns gets the godlike RACturion.
Competitive.
I also believe the TSN-C is the ComStar experimental model, mentioned in FM: C*. It uses iNARC.
Then we'll go to the Heavies. Despite being a brawler, the Crusader is light on armour. Pass. The Grand Dragon can be effective, but requires an incredible amount of micromanagement and can't be left on its own for a moment unless you want somone to core it through its paper-thin armour, and the custom job from Sword and Dragon is arguably better than this. Also pass. The Helios is under-armoured and under-supplied, coming in just behind the 3050 Ostscout as the 'Mech I least want to ever have to use. Big pass. The Bombadier manages to sidestep the LRM/C3 incompatability by mounting MMLs and is up-armoured... but is still a Bombadier, and what's with the Machine Guns?Getting warmer, though. The Ninja-To can be OK, but if you're going to call a 'Mech "the Ninja-To", it should at least have a sword. OK, that's probably excessively nit-picky, so we'll stop there.
Looking across the border, we see... the Marauder-5R. Hmmm. 6/9 heat pig versus 2 ER-PPC, R-A/C-5-wielding, well-sinked and armoured mainline heavy.
You be the judge.
I do agree with the Grashopper (and you missed the C3/MedLas Hunchie) but despite the Combine's greater variety of C3'ed designs, the machines in use throughout the Inner Sphere are much better designed and equipped. The Combine has a strange lack of competition once you finish the heavies, but that's typically the domain of Master 'Mechs, which you don't really expect much from any way, given the tonnage they're sacrificing. Although some recent designs have taken steps towards rectifying a bit of the disparity, on the whole things are still pretty bleak. Even taking into account some of the new and better designs, the Combine's general 'Mech choices are still worse than anyone else in the Sphere aside from the FWLM.
Actually, per TRO: 3050 Upgrades, it's a Kurita design.
Ignore the Davion designation behind the curtain. Fair enough. |
"Are you Australians always like this?" "What, awesome? Yes." *** I am working on ways to kill using words on an internet page. The results thus far are encouraging: About 90% of what has been said is confusing to me, but this made me laugh until I squirted hamburger out of my nose (and that hurt). Now armed with a FactBat.
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Crunch
Captain Posts: 1705
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I also fail to grasp what makes the Phoenix Hawk-7K such a great design. 9 Jump is not bad, but it's a waste of a good 6 tons that could have gone on weapons- you could loose the Snub, slap on a HPPC with another ER Medium, and add a Heat Sink. If you went to an XL Engine, you could even look at MASC or a Targeting Computer. For what the Combine is looking at from the Phoenix Hawk, a Pulse/TC version would be just as good (you could even grab the -3PL and replace its ER Smalls with a C3 Slave). But for just five tons more, the FedSuns gets the godlike RACturion.
In what way is the RACturion "godlike". Since you keep whining about it lets see how it stacks up to that 7K Pheonix Hawk shall we?
Mobility.
Clearly to the Pheonix Hawk. The difference between 6/9/9 and 6/9 with MASC isn't even a debate. The Pheonix Hawk can and will dictate the pace and distance of engagement, and is mobile enough to serve as a spotter in a C3 Lance.
Armor
144 for the Phoenix Hawk 152 for the RACturion. The edge is to the Centurion by 8 points.
Durability
With no ammo concerns, no explosive ammo, a light instead of an XL engine and the abillity to generate much higher movement
mods the Phoenix Hawk wins hand down.
Firepower
2 ER Mediums and a RAC5 versus a SNPPC and an ER Medium. The RACturion has an edge as long as its firing bursts from the RAC, but not by a heck of a lot.
Accuracy and Range of Engagement
The Phoenix Hawks SNPPC is at short range up to 9 hexes while the Centurion enters medium with all of its weapons at 5 hexes. Even with a tar comp the Centurion is going to have worse target numbers even before we start looking at TMMs as long as the PH can dictate range of engagement.
So we have two knife fighter designs designed to operate in C3 Lances.
The PH should never lose a duel to the RACturion, its mobility, durability and accuracy at medium range ensure that.
Its also a much more capable spotter due to mobility and survivability.
And if its not spotting it doesn't force the lances spotter into the teeth of short range weaponry to get full benefit from the C3.
Explain where the "godlike" nature of the Centurion comes in, because frankly I don't see it. Its a nice mech but the 7K P Hawk is a better designed C3 machine before you even get to how crappy FS C3 masters are.
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And if anyone asks, the Challenger's initials do not mean Main Battle Tank. It actually spells out to Monstrous Beatdown Truckzilla.
Weirdo
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Weirdo
Lieutenant Colonel Posts: 12603 The Sexy MAD Strut©. Now with 93% less pants!
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Considering the emphasis on Arrow IV on board arty I actually thought the 4 jump TAG Kage was pretty scary. I won't tell you how to run your faction though. I've had it used effectively against me a number of times.
Ditto that. A well-run Kage TAG squad can be truly evil, and even if you lose trooper #1, the rest are pretty effective kneecap hunters. Even if you don't actually get anything that way, given that the TAG means you're probably in close range already, the speed of the Kage squad means that enemy plans will be thrown out of whack just trying to avoid them. |
The following have no place in proper conversation, as they are not words in any way: U, R, 2, and teh. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR USING THEM. "Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!" -Neko Bijin "It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost "...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler You know, Zug, it's times like these that it's clear YOU ARE A FRICKIN' GENIUS. - 97jedi "Errol, where are you going!?" "Space Hawaii is THAT way!" -Intercepted comm chatter, Battlefleet Insanity Founding member, Phacade Force Five
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Nightward
Lieutenant Posts: 1528 COWER, BRIEF MOR... UH... HO HO HO
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Clearly to the Pheonix Hawk. The difference between 6/9/9 and 6/9 with MASC isn't even a debate. The Pheonix Hawk can and will dictate the pace and distance of engagement
As long as it can keep winning initiative and/or the mapsheets aren't fixed. Otherwise, at some point the RACturion's additional speed is going to get it into an advantageous firing position, probably somewhere to the Pixie's rear arcs.
With no ammo concerns, no explosive ammo, a light instead of an XL engine and the abillity to generate much higher movement
mods the Phoenix Hawk wins hand down.
"Much higher"? +1 for Jumping, neatly corrected for by the RACturion's Targeting Computer. Additional durability due to lack of explosive components and the Light Engine are cancelled out by the RACturion's massively superior firepower (40 on full clip against at best 20).
Firepower
2 ER Mediums and a RAC5 versus a SNPPC and an ER Medium. The RACturion has an edge as long as its firing bursts from the RAC, but not by a heck of a lot.
Even firing a single burst, the RACturion is able to do 15 to the Hawk's absolute best of 20. The RACturion wins this leg at a canter.
Accuracy and Range of Engagement
The Phoenix Hawks SNPPC is at short range up to 9 hexes while the Centurion enters medium with all of its weapons at 5 hexes. Even with a tar comp the Centurion is going to have worse target numbers even before we start looking at TMMs as long as the PH can dictate range of engagement.
Again, the assumption being you win initiative and are on floating maps. Typically this is not the case.
The Phoenix Hawk's Snub Cannon doesn't even come close to giving it any kind of competition to a R-A/C-5.
The PH should never lose a duel to the RACturion, its mobility, durability and accuracy at medium range ensure that.
There is no "accuracy at medium range." When the Snub makes medium range, the R-A/C may well also be there. The TC cancels out any advantage the Pixie may have gained from Jumping. The Pixie's sole other weapon is firing at Long at 9 hexes, whereas the Cen gets that at a -1, meaning it fires two weapons against the Pixie's one and on the same to-hits as long as terrain isn't involved.
Given that the R-A/C has the ability to deal almost four times as much damage than the Snub your entire plan hinges on, this is hardly what I would define as an instant win for the Hawk.
The Phoenix Hawk has to spend its time grinding. It needs to hit with everything in order to force a Pilot check. The Centurion, meanwhile, needs to get lucky once, maybe twice to win.
On defined mapsheets that aren't entirely forested over (ie, the way the game is ordinarily played), I'd back the RACturion any day of the week. If it's a Lance situation, the RACturion's buddies are going to be better designs than the Pixie's crews, too. Do you see where I'm going with this?
The RACturion was deranged before they errata'ed the TC/R-A/C rules ("I target your left leg via C3..."). Now it's only moderately unhinged, which still leaves it far and away ahead of the Phoenix Hawk. |
"Are you Australians always like this?" "What, awesome? Yes." *** I am working on ways to kill using words on an internet page. The results thus far are encouraging: About 90% of what has been said is confusing to me, but this made me laugh until I squirted hamburger out of my nose (and that hurt). Now armed with a FactBat.
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IvanR
WriterPosts: 6086
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you're missing the point Nightward - the PHX wins init and it might move to the RACturions rear arc. It loses init, and it just jumps 9 hexes away, and plinks with it's no ammo SN-PPC. A good -7K player will keep the TMM at +4, now providing that he is in the RAC's arc, he'll stay at 8-9 hexes or whatever - point is he'll be at the RAC's medium bracket. He also doesn't have to worry about heat, ammo or his main gun jamming.
but more likely, he'll just jump to avoid the RAC's arc. Torso-twisting only goes so far, and a canny player will avoid the big gun. At +3 THM for the jump plus the TMMs, the PHX player is not likely to score many hits, but, it can also do it longer and more reliably. The RAC can't corner something that can jump 9 hexes, and when it comes down to it, the PHX is just a heavy C3 spotter - the damage, ability to hit, and even movement is secodary to providing low numbers for the other three guys in the network to dish out the punishment.
the only more annoying spotter is the Ostscout -10CS, which is easy to put down, if you can ever hit the bugger. The Preta Dom is close in there too. |
Proud member of the League of Extraordinary Minor Minions"Stop thinking about what you Jihad, and start thinking about what you Ji-want."
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MadCapellan
Guerrilla Mapmaker Colonel Posts: 13580 I feel a wreck without my little Capellan girls...
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The Spider carries a standard Medium and a Medium Pulse, and commits the cardinal sin of having up to 8 heat points for movement and another 7 for its weapons whilst using single heat sinks. Let's cross the border and have a look at its Davion competitor, the Javelin-11D. OK, so it's slower, but it gets Double Heat Sinks and a targeting computer. Wowee. Combine Engineering at its finest. Way to design a 'Mech, guys.
Actually, the SDR-7KC Spider which I mentioned is from TRO: 3050 Upgrades, and mounts a Light PPC as it's only armament. It has a Light Fusion engine and double heat sinks. Armor is at 94% and mobility is normal for a Spider. It's an excellent spotter, if not much of a fighter.
I also fail to grasp what makes the Phoenix Hawk-7K such a great design. 9 Jump is not bad, but it's a waste of a good 6 tons that could have gone on weapons- you could loose the Snub, slap on a HPPC with another ER Medium, and add a Heat Sink. If you went to an XL Engine, you could even look at MASC or a Targeting Computer. For what the Combine is looking at from the Phoenix Hawk, a Pulse/TC version would be just as good (you could even grab the -3PL and replace its ER Smalls with a C3 Slave). But for just five tons more, the FedSuns gets the godlike RACturion.
Your dislike of the PXH-7K seems to be mostly based on your envy for the CN9-D5. Whilst the CN9-D5 is a pretty good 'Mech, that much I cannot deny, it's lack of jump jet hinder it's ability to operate in broken terrain, unlike the Phoenix Hawk, and it is very much a knife fighter. The Snub-Nose PPC has a short range of 9, four hexes into the medium range of the RAC/5, and into long range on the ER Medium. So, with Regular Mechwarriors, a PXH-7K which jumped the full distance and fires from 9 hexes hits the Centurion on a 7, whilst return fire hits on a 10. So the Centurion might win initiative and catch up using MASC, you say? assuming it can do so (depending on the terrain) and closes to point blank range, it's to hit number is still 10 because it moved. Keep in mind also that the PXH-7K wasn't built to duel CN9-D5s, but act as a spotter for a C³ lance, in which case, they are excellent spotters, due to their high mobility and excellent ability to generate to-hit modifiers.
I also believe the TSN-C is the ComStar experimental model, mentioned in FM: C*. It uses iNARC.
According to TRO: 3067, it was designed for the Combine, and according to Combat Operations, it is on the Draconis Combine faction list. If you've got problems with the PXH-7K, maybe you should use it instead?
Despite being a brawler, the Crusader is light on armour.
90% maximum possible armor is light? Now I know you are just looking to complain.
Looking across the border, we see... the Marauder-5R. Hmmm. 6/9 heat pig versus 2 ER-PPC, R-A/C-5-wielding, well-sinked and armoured mainline heavy.
You be the judge.
You're totally missing out on the new WHM-9K with it's paired Heavy PPCs & Streak SRM-4. 100% armor, 16 double heat sinks, and a standard fusion engine to boot. Or the new Hatamoto-Chi, just five tons up. What say you now?
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Max Francis Vard
Major Posts: 3347 I wanna be bp_foster and Ian Sharpe when I grow up
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Actually, the SDR-7KC Spider which I mentioned is from TRO: 3050 Upgrades, and mounts a Light PPC as it's only armament. It has a Light Fusion engine and double heat sinks. Armor is at 94% and mobility is normal for a Spider. It's an excellent spotter, if not much of a fighter.
I'm...I'm in love. 
Not with you MadCapellan. With the Spider.
Great thread though, one of the best. I don't usually get the tactical doctrines for the houses operate detailed so well. Thanks MadCapellan, Arkansas Warrior, Crunch. |
Find me on myspace and xanga. Watch out celebrities! The year that took Gary Gygax and Charleton Heston isn't done yet!
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MadCapellan
Guerrilla Mapmaker Colonel Posts: 13580 I feel a wreck without my little Capellan girls...
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I'm...I'm in love. Not with you MadCapellan.
Not that I could blame you if you were. I am quite the impressive individual.  |
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Weirdo
Lieutenant Colonel Posts: 12603 The Sexy MAD Strut©. Now with 93% less pants!
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| But of course. After all, he is the Dark Lord of the Pimp... |
The following have no place in proper conversation, as they are not words in any way: U, R, 2, and teh. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR USING THEM. "Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!" -Neko Bijin "It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost "...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler You know, Zug, it's times like these that it's clear YOU ARE A FRICKIN' GENIUS. - 97jedi "Errol, where are you going!?" "Space Hawaii is THAT way!" -Intercepted comm chatter, Battlefleet Insanity Founding member, Phacade Force Five
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Rage
Colonel Posts: 22049
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But of course. After all, he is the Dark Lord of the Pimp...
But not Pimp of Pimps. |
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Nightward
Lieutenant Posts: 1528 COWER, BRIEF MOR... UH... HO HO HO
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you're missing the point Nightward - the PHX wins init and it might move to the RACturions rear arc.
Not as long as you keep at least 4 hexes between the Centurion and the Phoenix Hawk.
It loses init, and it just jumps 9 hexes away, and plinks with it's no ammo SN-PPC. A good -7K player will keep the TMM at +4, now providing that he is in the RAC's arc, he'll stay at 8-9 hexes or whatever - point is he'll be at the RAC's medium bracket. He also doesn't have to worry about heat, ammo or his main gun jamming.
Personally I suspect neither nation would be handing over machines like these to Regular pilots, but if they are:
Phoenix Hawk Jumps, Centurion uses MASC:
4 Gunnery + 3 for Jumping + 4 Target Movement = 11 to-hit on the Centurion. The ER Medium can't hit at Medium Range. This goes down to 10 for the Snub and 12s for the ER Medium if the Centurion runs 9 instead.
Centurion Runs, Phoenix Hawk Jumps:
4 Gunnery + 2 for Running +4 Target Movement + 2 Medium Range -1 for Targeting Computer= 13. Fair enough; bad news.
What this essentially means is that if either party really wants to hit, they're going to need to slow down. And if the Centurion can get to Short range on its R-A/C, it too is looking at an 11 to-hit but can do more damage if it clocks on. The problem for the Phoenix Hawk is that the second it slows down or moves in (or gets trapped at the 4-hex sweet spot, which could happen) it surrenders all the advantages it has from its movement and the Snub. The only thing it's got going for it then is the Snub's concentrated damage, but I'd still be backing the Centurion.
If they get better pilots, the Centurion starts to look even better still.
The Centurion is not the be-all and end-all of 'Mechs (this, of course, belongs to the Akuma) but I would still say it is still a better performer than the Phoenix Hawk.
The RAC can't corner something that can jump 9 hexes, and when it comes down to it, the PHX is just a heavy C3 spotter - the damage, ability to hit, and even movement is secodary to providing low numbers for the other three guys in the network to dish out the punishment.
Yeah, but this is the thing; whilst the Phoenix Hawk might be the spotter for its friends, the Centurion will be a linesman for its C3 setup. Whilst I'd say the C3 slave Komodo is its equal or possibly even its better du to he 9-hex Medium Laser spam barrage, the Centurion's compatriots are likely to be better designs than the ones accompanying the Phoenix Hawk. This is a bit of a pain.
The Preta Dom is close in there too.
Is it what. But with its 4 ER Mediums and Targeting Computer, the Preta is also arguably better than the Phoenix Hawk, "heavy spotter" status or no 
Your dislike of the PXH-7K seems to be mostly based on your envy for the CN9-D5.
Not really; I just think it's a poor design in general. Something moving 6/9/9 can afford an XL, but it doesn't have one. With regular Jump Jets and/or MASC, it could still have been highly mobile whilst carrying a better payload. I just dislike the 'Mech in general.
90% maximum possible armor is light? Now I know you are just looking to complain.
Thanks to its MRMs, the Crusader needs to be operating at ranges of 15 or less, which places it near Medium for return fire on many big guns. Going 4/6/4 isn't enough to generate a movement modifier that can keep the 33/24 torsos safe, and God forbid anyone makes it into your Left Torso, where it houses all its ammunition and an XL Engine. My opinion would be very different were it a flat 4/6 mover that used ER Mediums instead of the -5K's secondary array and used the reclaimed tonnage to mount a Standard Engine. I'd use it if I had to- but only if I had to.
You're totally missing out on the new WHM-9K with it's paired Heavy PPCs & Streak SRM-4. 100% armor, 16 double heat sinks, and a standard fusion engine to boot.
30 damage at up to 18 hexes against the MAD's 20 at up to 23. Next range band for the WHR is the 9-hex range where, by overheating, it can do 38. The MAD can deliver 30 without heat starting at 15 hexes (50 if it wants to go all out with the R-A/C) with a max total damage of 60 (again, with a bit of heat). On top of that, the MAD carries an ECM Suite, which means that if both sides have C3, the spotter needs to sit somwhere near the 7 hex mark, still short range for the Marauder's PPCs whilst the 'Hammer is already at Medium.
Whilst the new War Hammer is by no means a bad machine, it's still inferior to the Marauder.
Or the new Hatamoto-Chi, just five tons up. What say you now?
The -28T? It's OK, I guess, but (perhaps strangely) I'd have preferred something a little more like Daniel's custom Hatamoto. You can go 3/5/3, and pack dual LB-10Xs over three Streak-4s. If you want to drop a half a ton (7pts) from max armour, you can add an ECM Suite; if you want max armour, you can finish it off with an ER Medium, a Flamer for the Manei Domeni, or whatever else takes your fancy. I used to hate the Hatamoto on principle alone, but it began to grow on me after Sword and Dragon.
The Combine's choices have certainly improved as far as C3 goes, but it's still nowhere as good as the C3/C3i options for other affiliations. And since the Combine's general options are also weaker than those of other Houses, it presents a bit of a problem. |
"Are you Australians always like this?" "What, awesome? Yes." *** I am working on ways to kill using words on an internet page. The results thus far are encouraging: About 90% of what has been said is confusing to me, but this made me laugh until I squirted hamburger out of my nose (and that hurt). Now armed with a FactBat.
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Crunch
Captain Posts: 1705
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Have it your way. All Kurita mechs are terrible, all Davion mechs are overpowered and the Kurita idea of tactics is scream and charge. I sincerely hope you enjoy the game that way. You're obviously not interested in what anyone has to say, and you have very strange definitions of superior.
Back to house specific doctrine, and avoiding House Kurita so as not to send you on another crying jag.
I think we're all aware that House Davion has a reputation for using heavy cavalry tactics relying on high force mobility etc.
I'd like to bring up for consideration Lyran tactics for a second.
It occurs to me that the Lyran Commonwealth is actually using WWI Hutier tactics.
In other words begin with a preparatory barrage to blind and pin the enemy then use your advance troops (In Lyran terms their common and heavy hitting lights (Commandos, Blitzkriegs, Wolfhounds et al)) to bypass and isolate pockets of resistance while your reserve (Those brawling Lyran Mediums, Hvy BA and Fast Assaults) destroys the isolated pockets at leisure.
Any experienced FWL or Cappy players have any ideas? I have some observations, but they're very much an outsiders view. |
And if anyone asks, the Challenger's initials do not mean Main Battle Tank. It actually spells out to Monstrous Beatdown Truckzilla.
Weirdo
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Nightward
Lieutenant Posts: 1528 COWER, BRIEF MOR... UH... HO HO HO
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All Kurita mechs are terrible
Not all. They get a few that are pretty good, but certainly less than the AFFS, LAAF, or CCAF have. Weight class by weight class, the only Successor House's military they do better than is the FLWM, and even that's a bit shaky when you consider that some of its splinter states employ Wobbly Tech.
The only way you can even look to bridge the gap is by playing non-canon designs, which allows the Draconis Combine to employ its Clan Tech cache.
Going by the printed, canon record sheets, though, the AFFS is clearly in a class of its own. With fighting game terminology, the Shadow Divisions would be God-tier, the AFFS 1st-tier, the LAAF and CCAF second-tier, the Combine at 3rd tier and just barely edging past the FWLM and Royal Kungsarme at fourth tier.
all Davion mechs are overpowered
Again, not all. On the balance, the FedSuns employs better units. It best options leave the Combine (and pretty much everyone else) in the dust.
and the Kurita idea of tactics is scream and charge.
I see you've read our Field Manual. Despite Lord Theodore's efforts, many regimental commanders still insist on using that very doctrine, a problem which is magnified by the ascendancy of the Black Dragon Society.
Units using artillery-heavy, combined-arms approaches are present in the DCMS but are by far in the minority. You're looking at perhaps the Legions of Vega, the Genyosha, some of the Ryuken, and that District of Benjamin outfit that uses the "heaven and earth" approach (the 17th? I think?).
However, the combined-arms, artillery-heavy approach pretty much defines Regimental Combat Teams, which just so happens to be the | |
