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warpimp
Master Sergeant Posts: 342 Getting in on other peoples jokes since 1982! 
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| Well, now that we know they are not Clan Wolverine what are they? Do we have any facts on them besides they raided Kurita a few times? Clan scouts after the Dragoons quit reporting? Pirates? Abandoned plot device? |
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Maelwys
Lieutenant Colonel Posts: 7286
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| Erm, the Jihad Secrets pretty much confirms they ARE Clan Wolverine. |
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Cray
WriterPosts: 14622 How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
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Well, now that we know they are not Clan Wolverine what are they?
When did the Minnesota tribe become non-Wolverine? |
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor." --Raz, Anathem.
If you have any BattleTech-related technical questions that you don't want to ask on the Ask the Writers forum of CBT.com, you can send me a private message, or find me on BTechUnits.com, Sarna.net, or Heavymetalpro.com.
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Snowfire
Sergeant Posts: 182 1st Proserpina Hussars FOREVER
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They were WAYYYYY before the Dragoons.
I still like to think some of them went "south" and are still out there somewhere with mullets and bad fashion sense screaming WOLVERINES!!!!!!
and dreaming of raiding the MoC for "breeding" stock. Who would want to do that? |
Despite the name I am a Drac fan.
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warpimp
Master Sergeant Posts: 342 Getting in on other peoples jokes since 1982!
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| confusion on my part. I thought that since the Wolverines were part of the WoB that that had left the identity of the Minnesota Tribe unknown. So I figure all is explained in one of the Jihad books then? |
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Maelwys
Lieutenant Colonel Posts: 7286
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| Not really. Even the Wolverine stuff in the latest book is "unproven till confirmed elsewhere." |
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Solarmech
Major Posts: 3946 MekTek Staff Member & BattleTech Heretic 
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I still like to think some of them went "south" and are still out there somewhere with mullets and bad fashion sense screaming WOLVERINES!!!!!!
Better that then being able to have big sharp pointy claws pop out of thier for-arms. sm |
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Dragon Cat
Captain Posts: 3076 We make our lives out of chaos, hope and love
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Not really. Even the Wolverine stuff in the latest book is "unproven till confirmed elsewhere."
Even if it is confirmed, perhaps some of the Wolverines continued on as the Minesotta Tribe, the legend could still be alive |
May our Visions Guide Us! Puritfied in Heart and Soul The Blakists will feel our Wrath for their Crimes The Nova Cats will Survive this Jihad The Nova Cat must Survive Seyla!
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warpimp
Master Sergeant Posts: 342 Getting in on other peoples jokes since 1982!
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so what does the book say about them? That they were some sort of diversion? I really dont see how it connects.
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Maelwys
Lieutenant Colonel Posts: 7286
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Basically...
Wolverines leave Clan space.
About the time they'd hit the Inner Sphere, the "Minnesota Tribe (Isn't that name the IS's name for them, not necessarily their own name) hits the Kuritans on 4 worlds. After the story of the Wolverines comes out, the timing, as well as the Star League mechs, the advanced Star League cooling suit, and the Wolverine/Minnesota/331 patch pretty much confirms that it was the Wolverines. What happened after that, is unknown.
The Jihad Secrets book indicates that after they disappear, Comstar actually found them (instead of the report of no traces) and atleast part of the Wolverine remnants were brought to Mars where they eventually spread to the Hidden Worlds, and manipulated Comstar. All of this is speculation and possibly false information. |
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warpimp
Master Sergeant Posts: 342 Getting in on other peoples jokes since 1982!
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| Thanks! That helps alot. About what time IRL did the first reports of the wolverines come out? |
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Lord Graygem
Sergeant Posts: 196
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| There are also the vaguest of hints that part of the Wolverines broke off from the rest and became the 'Mech-armed invaders of Nueva Castille. |
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Rainbow 6
Captain Posts: 2072 Avatar by DoT
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| I wonder why their mechs didn't include the Mercury II, Stag & Pulveriser. |
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Dragon Cat
Captain Posts: 3076 We make our lives out of chaos, hope and love
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I wonder why their mechs didn't include the Mercury II, Stag & Pulveriser.
Perhaps they were held by the most loyal troops?
Though I think they are more likely former SLDF troops that retreated following the Pentagon Wars instead of allowing themselves to be cut to shreds - instead the Periphery has done its work on them. |
May our Visions Guide Us! Puritfied in Heart and Soul The Blakists will feel our Wrath for their Crimes The Nova Cats will Survive this Jihad The Nova Cat must Survive Seyla!
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Isanov
Major Posts: 5486 Hello, what's your name?
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Basically, they ran away from the big bad Clans who were intent on genocide, and a rag-tag band of ships sailed thru the cosmos, dogged by ghost bear pursuit, 11,000 souls wandering looking for a home...
remind you of anything? 
If the records are to be believed, some ships got lost along the way, but probably died out even if they survived due to pop numbers. some may have becomed nueva as mentioned, and the rest became cybernetic crazy junkie soldiers living on mars, hidden worlds and hyperspace pockets of reality screaming "Frail!!!" whilst eating corn flakes and waiting for Armageddon. Ohh and they built a cool PPC that they apparently didnt give over to the Com Guards general tech.
I was kinda hoping that they would have been part of comstar and maybe deployed as the Vandenburg White WIngs, but they seem to have turned into the new boogieman of history. Hard to follow how a group that got kicked out for espousing democracy morphed into a group that looked down on the rest of humanity and had an inate desire to kill kill kill.
Now they only need unleash the genecaste warriors against them to make things a lot of fun. |
Texans, Taurians, Carthaginians... thier all the same. People who live in easily stabbed bodies should not throw stones. - GoblinSmithy "Holy Rosa Parks!" - Captain Jack Bonnier, Culver Revenge www.buspirates.com"Speaking as a guy who's perfectly willing to flip small nukes at sufficiently important targets if my faction's silly enough to give them to me..." - Moonsword
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Peacemaker
Captain Posts: 1874 WHERE ARE YOU MASON????!!!!
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Isanov, that's pretty much the best description of the Word of Blake and Minnestoa Tribe I've heard.
I have hard time buying that the Wolverines became the Umayyads and Manei Domini, colonized McEverdy's Folly and then found the time to travel somewhere Coreward of the Magistry. There simply weren't enough of them to distribute in all those directions. |
We didn't have any beef with the Steiners until they became the Davion's retarded sidekick with the wallet.
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Stormlion1
Lieutenant Posts: 1174 Hitting people with Rattan since 2004
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Some became Umayyads soon after leaving Clan Space, By the Time they were to the right of the Outworlds Alliance on a map, they were found by Comstar, Fleet splits again-Some go with Comstar, rest continue south (these ones probably took Mechs like the Stag and Pulverizer with them). They then colonized McEverdys Folly, left soon after went south from the magistry and eventually settled far from the Inner Sphere where they content themselves fighting aliens who want to invade the Inner Sphere.
I always preferred the old explanation of the Wolverines fighting aliens anyway. |
usebars by xtrahmxwohld and Skuggi On the workbench: Plastic mechs from boxset in varoius units paint schemes
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Maelwys
Lieutenant Colonel Posts: 7286
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| The Umayyad Connection still hasn't been confirmed. It was just said that they went in that direction (possibly). IIRC the dates for it are screwy as well. |
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Rainbow 6
Captain Posts: 2072 Avatar by DoT
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| It's about 5 years difference. |
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durant
Private Posts: 48
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forsaken by their camrade, 5 years is a good time to prepare by exemple a revolution inside the castillians... with help from the lower level of population and some dark caste may be, and with the advantage of mech (castillans had no mechs at this time), a handfull of warrior well prepared can take easily the edge against a lower civilisation and take the power on the mass, don't forget that the homeyad are democratic and not the castillians...
their true reasons to take power (but failed) can be multiple but I hope that it was for provide a bait to the clan...
About the tirpitz's affair I guess why the ship was always in the new vandenberg system so much time after kerensky departure (there was the twins aboard) and it is to me a possibility that all we know about this story inside comstar is not totally accurate, like the merope's affairs (always unclear)...
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Stormlion1
Lieutenant Posts: 1174 Hitting people with Rattan since 2004
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It's about 5 years difference.
5 years difference in the periphery can be put down to bad bookkeeping on someones part. |
usebars by xtrahmxwohld and Skuggi On the workbench: Plastic mechs from boxset in varoius units paint schemes
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Rainbow 6
Captain Posts: 2072 Avatar by DoT
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| Or a misjump? |
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specter
Master Sergeant Posts: 279
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Assuming that Betrayal of Ideals (BoI) and BlakeDocs are to be trusted, we can conclude a few things:
BoI:
October 2823: 2/3 of the Wolverines escape the Homeworlds.
January 2824: SLS Yukon had remained behind and extracts Wolverines and supplies from a moon of Arcadia.
Though discovered by Ghost Bear they are allowed to go.
June 2824: The Wolverines, fleeing from the Clans, split into four groups. Each group also carried a big number of civilians.
The main group resupplied at Barbados. The others were sent out for scouting. One scouting group under saKhan Trish Ebon.
July 2824: The Clans destroy the main group at Barbados. However the SLS Zughoffer Weir and a few transports manage to escape. Steel Vipers assigned to
chase these vessels.
August 2824: Trish Ebon's fleet arrives at Barbados. One of the other two scouting forces arrives at Barbados. SLS Yukon arrives at Barbados.
Survivors are rescued from the planet. A mysterious old woman is found among the survivors who might be Khan Sarah McEvedy.
BlakeDocs:
August 2824: Ships that could flee the battle at Barbados in July assemble at another system. Zughoffer Weir among them. Report to be chased.
January-March 2825: Report contact with Spanish-speaking colonies. Attempt to trade fails.
October 2825-February 2826: Extract prisoners and material from several DC worlds.
June-August 2826: Fleet pursued by Comstar. Rimward of OA open talks with Comstar and decide to join.
3061: WoB refurbishes an old McKenna-class warship, captured rimward of the OA. Indication that this might be the Zughoffer Weir.
Conclusions:
The Wolverines split into four major groups in June 2824. One group was eleminated at Barbados (Main Group). Two groups joined under the surviving Khan (Ebon Group). Their whereabouts are unclear. The fate of the 4th group is also unclear (Scout Group). In addition a splinter of the Main Group was able to flee (Zughoffer Group). They also had a spin-off which might have become the Umayyad Caliphates (Umayyad Group). We also know the Zughoffer Group is responsible for the Minnesota-Tribe incident and were absorbed by Comstar.
Outlook:
So far we know what happened to two of the five groups (Main Group, Zughoffer Group) and we have a suspicion what might have happened to one other Group (Umayyad Group). However, the largest surviving chunk of the Wolverines is still out there. |
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Psycho
CamoSpecsPosts: 3533
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Given the nature of the report in BD, we don't actually "know" anything stated there.
While the location of the McKenna refurbished and reused as Blake's Sword is suspicious, it was not proven to be the Weir. Of nearly 300 McKennas built, only a few are known for certain to us. The two ships are only linked by the way they were presented, nothing else. Take the C* report on its own, and there's no link to the Wolverines. If it had said that techs had accessed on-board databases and concluded the ship was the Weir, then there'd be a connection.
There's also the segment of Paradeau's writings that says the entire Minnesota Tribe, incidents and "evidence" was a fabrication by Comstar. While it doesn't take up nearly as much room as the 'journals' detailing the Wolverine's flight, it does explain a good number of things quite well that having the Wolverines survive and join Comstar doesn't. Simplest solutions being mostly likely correct and all... |
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nova_dew
Sergeant Posts: 153
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The way i know things as far as cannon/trueish go is that Betrayal of Ideals is more true than Blakeist docs so from what i see is going to be after the big quote 
Assuming that Betrayal of Ideals (BoI) and BlakeDocs are to be trusted, we can conclude a few things:
BoI:
October 2823: 2/3 of the Wolverines escape the Homeworlds.
--SNIP--
August 2824: Trish Ebon's fleet arrives at Barbados. One of the other two scouting forces arrives at Barbados. SLS Yukon arrives at Barbados.
Survivors are rescued from the planet. A mysterious old woman is found among the survivors who might be Khan Sarah McEvedy.
BlakeDocs:
August 2824: Ships that could flee the battle at Barbados in July assemble at another system. Zughoffer Weir among them. Report to be chased.
--SNIP--
3061: WoB refurbishes an old McKenna-class warship, captured rimward of the OA. Indication that this might be the Zughoffer Weir.
--SNIP--
BoL true well mostly
August 2824: Ships that could flee the battle at Barbados in July assemble at another system. Zughoffer Weir among them. Report to be chased. Stands to reason really
other than possibly the Weir
January-March 2825: Report contact with Spanish-speaking colonies. Attempt to trade fails. maybe maybe not
October 2825-February 2826: Extract prisoners and material from several DC worlds. OK they might of done this out of fear for there own survival they needed the stock so to say
June-August 2826: Fleet pursued by Comstar. Rimward of OA open talks with Comstar and decide to join. don't see why they'd do that run from one master straight to another but this time religious ones
3061: WoB refurbishes an old McKenna-class warship, captured rimward of the OA. Indication that this might be the Zughoffer Weir do we know that they did not have a second McKenna or that it was not one abandoned before the Exodus
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Designer and owner of Silly Inc. 'mechworks (for everything you never wanted or needed)
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BlackStorm
Warrant Officer Posts: 705
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one thing, if they did join C* when they ran they left the weir out there a LONG time.
Iinterstellar explorations in ISP has some interesting stuff on them. |
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Todays Empires, Tomorrows Ashes
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Liam's Ghost
Major Posts: 4423 I'm not really this screwed up.
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Given the nature of the report in BD, we don't actually "know" anything stated there.
Funny thing about the information in the Blake Documents. It mentions both Barbados and the Zug by name in proper context. The odds of WoB ROM randomly picking the right missing McKenna out of a hat are bad enough. The odds of Comstar randomly picking the exact same name as an actual star system in clan space that none of them had ever seen before is... significantly worse.
Pulling off those two coincidences, then having the resulting story coincidentally mesh with an established story you've never read before... nuh uh. Comstar does not possess the Heart of Gold.
Which doesn't mean the story isn't fabricated. Only that it fits together with what us as readers know. Suppose the Zug was abandoned for whatever reason and recovered by Comstar? A McKenna isn't just a battleship, it's got a huge amount of cargo space. Maybe the fleeing Wolverines were forced to abandon their battleship and leave behind equipment that they couldn't transport. If Comstar found something like that, then they could concievably have recovered examples of Wolverine equipment and information about what had transpired in Clan space.
The Wolverine connection could be a complete hoax, though then you find yourself wondering why...
If you're an adherent of the theory that the Word of Blake is playing to lose, then the revelation that Clan Wolverine survived, hid among Comstar, and is a driving force behind the Jihad is a great way to make sure the rest of the Clans take a keen interest in matters. The flaw in the theory (as well as being the weak point in the entire The Word is Playing to Lose theory) is that a conscious widespread conspiracy of this nature is complicated and prone to failure.
An alternate theory I presented elsewhere is that a subsect of the Word of Blake slowly began to venerate and eventually emulate their idealized image of the Wolverine survivors. With the application of time, obfuscation, and mysticism, they may have truly begun to believe they were descended of these original survivors and crafted a mythology around their supposed arrival within Comstar.
Or some parts could be true and others made up. The Blood could truly be Wolverine descendents who are overstating their importance and impact on history. The blood could be an entirely ficticious entity, there could be no shadowy cabal at all, just Thomas Marik and his followers, and those who see the writing on the wall (the Word of Blake is losing the war and has been since the first shots were fired) could have concocted it as a way to try to hide their own direct responsibility in the Jihad. "It wasn't me, it was the second Precentor on the hidden world who ordered that atrocity".
About the only thing that can be certain of is that the stuff in the Blake Documents mentions the Zug and the Barbados system by name. |
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I'm sure this goes against everything you've been taught, but right and wrong do exist. Just because you don't know what the right answer is, maybe there's even no way you could know what the right answer is, doesn't make your answer right or even okay. It's much simpler than that. It's just plain wrong.
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Jimmyray73
Captain Posts: 1750 Warning: Bullets come out this end...
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| I'm just glad they weren't travelling on a ship called Event Horizon. After all wasn't it created by a Dr. Wier or somesuch? |
"Could we please see about getting a real WarShip or thirty?" (Poached shamelessly from GiovanniBlassini)
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Maelwys
Lieutenant Colonel Posts: 7286
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The Wolverine connection could be a complete hoax, though then you find yourself wondering why...
In her ranting, Victoria Parrdeau hints that every Precentor ROM has their own Operation Holy Shroud. What if this is hers? Revealing that Wolverines are sitting at the heart of the group that owns Terra is almost guaranteed to cause the Clans to go nuts. What if her plan is to trigger an invasion by all the Clans (or atleast rile up the Clans in the Inner Sphere) to the point where they lash out, attacking towards Terra, through the Lyran Alliance, the FRR and the Draconis Combine. The DC and the LA aren't likely to just let the Clans attack through. Comstar will have to resist them as well. The FWL will back the WoB, and the Fed Suns will probably back the LA/Comstar. Suddenly you've got a massive, full scale interstellar war on your hands. Add in the Clans from the Homeworlds and it could be devastating.
This could either trigger the collapse of the IS, OR give the Houses a good reason to back the WoB's plans of destroying all the Clans... |
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Liam's Ghost
Major Posts: 4423 I'm not really this screwed up.
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In her ranting, Victoria Parrdeau hints that every Precentor ROM has their own Operation Holy Shroud. What if this is hers? Revealing that Wolverines are sitting at the heart of the group that owns Terra is almost guaranteed to cause the Clans to go nuts. What if her plan is to trigger an invasion by all the Clans (or atleast rile up the Clans in the Inner Sphere) to the point where they lash out, attacking towards Terra, through the Lyran Alliance, the FRR and the Draconis Combine. The DC and the LA aren't likely to just let the Clans attack through. Comstar will have to resist them as well. The FWL will back the WoB, and the Fed Suns will probably back the LA/Comstar. Suddenly you've got a massive, full scale interstellar war on your hands. Add in the Clans from the Homeworlds and it could be devastating.
This could either trigger the collapse of the IS, OR give the Houses a good reason to back the WoB's plans of destroying all the Clans...
ooh, and since the clans don't have the manpower and forces to properly assert their dominance even if they win the ground war, even if they win they're still likely to lose. I like it. It's no less plausible than speculating that the Master is sacrificing the Word of Blake to bring about the rise of a new Hero who can end the destructive fighting... |
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I'm sure this goes against everything you've been taught, but right and wrong do exist. Just because you don't know what the right answer is, maybe there's even no way you could know what the right answer is, doesn't make your answer right or even okay. It's much simpler than that. It's just plain wrong.
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specter
Master Sergeant Posts: 279
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But isn't the mentioning of Barbados and the Weir sufficient evidence to say that Comstar was able to connect with at least one group of the Wolverines.
By the way: The summary I gave a few post ago was less concerned with substantiating anything potential link between C* and the Wolverines.
The point was to prove that even if the BlakeDocs story can be trusted, we only know the fate of a small splinter of the Wolverines.
-> Whether or not BlakeDocs can be trusted, the fate of the majority of the surviving Wolverines is not known!
In other words: Even in the best case BlakeDocs tells us only a minor side plot but does not reveal the big story! |
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Maelwys
Lieutenant Colonel Posts: 7286
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But isn't the mentioning of Barbados and the Weir sufficient evidence to say that Comstar was able to connect with at least one group of the Wolverines.
By the way: The summary I gave a few post ago was less concerned with substantiating anything potential link between C* and the Wolverines.
The point was to prove that even if the BlakeDocs story can be trusted, we only know the fate of a small splinter of the Wolverines.
-> Whether or not BlakeDocs can be trusted, the fate of the majority of the surviving Wolverines is not known!
In other words: Even in the best case BlakeDocs tells us only a minor side plot but does not reveal the big story!
No, because the information could come about in several different ways. The Weir could've been discovered at any time. Comstar had Explorer Corps units out there, so they could've come across it, and read it in the logs. Or perhaps ROM found it when they were searching for the Minnesota Tribe. Battletech has a history of things just "falling" into people's laps. Snord's Irregulars found a crashed Colossus class DropShip that allowed them to equip nearly their entire unit with Star League designs. A Taurian farmer trips over a Star League depot and the Taurians get the Maultier (and the chance to create FF armor early on, which they fail). A Periphery prospector goes looking for one thing, and finds enough Germanium to create an entire nation. Its not out of the realm of possibility for the WoB (or Comstar at some point) to find some scraps of information (crashed DropShip, disabled/scuttled JumpShip, failed colony, whatever) without necessarily finding any living Wolverines. They could've just found remnants, which lead them to the Weir. |
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