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Major
Posts: 4163

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

I'd argue for the smaller Mule being useful in lower-developed planets, due to its lower damage exhaust.  The 52 kton transport needs higher tech for its landing pad (to avoid damage) so is more restricted. 

Not really.  It's more a question of effort invested than high tech.  Building a landing pad for any size of spheroid requires nothing more than victorian-era technology. 

Quote
I'd use the tug to attach the crippled Dropship to the Jumpship, then have the tug dock.

The problem is that usually a disabled dropper usually has has engineering casualties that prevent it from jumping when the js does whcih is a bad thing.  Given the cost and mass that a tug has to pay to be a tug, it should be able to extend it's kf grid over what it's hauling.

-Jackmc
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Major
Posts: 3769

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

FASAnomics is still wonky, but no where near as breaks-the-fundamental-laws-of-reality weird as say FASAphysics.

Yeah, but it break the laws of economics in that it looks like it would be impossible to break a profit running a jumpship, you'd just get deeper in the hole. 50K per dropship per jump so lets say you're running a Monolith, with 9 jumpships, and that you jump only between stars that allow you to recharge in a week.

Base cost is 1,119,774,840 C-Bills.
Income is 350,000 cbills per week (optimally)
To purchase that monolith will take 3,199 weeks. 61 years. However, there is interest. You can't buy anything without interest. Because the bank loaning you the money to buy the ship needs to make money to pay their salaries, their costs, and they HAVE to turn a proffit.

Lets say it's one percent interest compounded yearly (that's lower than believable, but it helps illustrate my poiint)...that makes the cost over 61 years 1.83 times higher. It'll take longer So lets say it's over 100 years then it's 2.7 times the cost- you can't ever turn a proffit.

Add on the fact that you need to pay YOUR crew members, pay insurance, pay for fuel, pay for supplies, pay for maintenance and spare parts. If you don't pay insurance, then when that idiot pilot for a behemoth that's also uninsured fails his piloting roll to dock with your baby doll, your pride and joy, your Monolith, then you have to pay for fixing the thing out of your pocket otherwise you might have only 8 docking points (or worse). No matter what, you'll never have the thing pay for itself in a normal life time (say you buy it when you're 30) A big down payment will help against the interest, but 1% interest is unlikely for a bank to be interested in loaning the rest (they can make a lot more money loaning that money to domeone willing to pay a higher interest rate, perhaps a mining operation, or building constructors/buyers, and why would YOU be interested in buying the thing if it'll never turn a proffit?

Possible alternatives: Government subsidies in return for use when needed and control over jump routes. Higher charges per jump (50K per docking point doesn't work), Zero interest loans, space leprechauns that give you a pot of c-bills on a regular basis. Higher rates when jumping into dangerous areas (that's a no brainer), Joint ownership of dropships as well as the jumpship, the dropships can make a proffit because their rates aren't as tied down, that sorta gets rid of any reason to give people with their own dropships a ride however.

Docking fees. docking with a jumpship is a very real risk to the delicate ship, Pilots will normally take all the time needed (the jumpship is there for a week after all) However rushed charges would apply (a dropship would need to take several hours to ENSURE no damage is done). It's not unlikely that many jumpstations also carry docking pilots who are specialized in this particular maneuver and familiar with all jumpship docking collars, etc. There's a docking fee associated with using the docking pilot, he (or the company he works for) gives the jumpship a kickback. This is similar to many bays having pilots that must be used to bring a ship into dock or out to the ocean.

Late Fees. If a particular dropship isn't at the jumpship by an agreed time (presumably schedules are arranged long ahead of time) then it's costing not only the jumpship, but the other dropships on board it a lot of money. Holding in station when a jumpship is ready to leave would be very expensive, dependent on other companies, and probably results in litigation all the time. Jumpships must have legal advise, not necessarily on board, but I can see law firms having offices aboard stations for this reason.

Route Fees Planets benefit from jumpships carrying dropships to their location, they get equipment and supplies from different worlds, it helps their economy and infrastructure. It's not unreasonable for planets to pay jumpships bonuses for including them on their route (bonuses would be determined by contracts require a certain number of arrivals with dropships on board from other particular worlds, stuff like that)- another reason for Lawyers to live on Jumpstations, this would probably be a pretty complex document. It would make jumpship pilots/owners leery about leaving regularly scheduled routes however.

So I think Fasanomics pretty much do break the laws of economics just as their physics do. They do things that simply won't work. While Economics aren't as scientific as Physics are, they both do obey the laws of mathematics.
You really do need the leprechauns to make it work acceptably.
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Captain
Posts: 2538

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

Not really.  It's more a question of effort invested than high tech.  Building a landing pad for any size of spheroid requires nothing more than victorian-era technology. 

True, given that the blast radius for all dropships is identical.  As long as you have spare terrain, you can have any number of Dropships land there.  It will tend to resemble the moon after a while (lots of craters).

The fun part is building the new railroads to the Dropship after each launch/landing.  Larger Dropships will need more rail going back and forth.  A small dropship might only need a train-carried crane (mounted on the train for maximum mobility) to unload cargo, while larger Dropships will need dedicated cranes to transfer cargo back and forth.

The problem is that usually a disabled dropper usually has has engineering casualties that prevent it from jumping when the js does whcih is a bad thing.  Given the cost and mass that a tug has to pay to be a tug, it should be able to extend it's kf grid over what it's hauling.

-Jackmc

The tug should have its own engineering crew plus spares, which can handle the repairs necessary.  All you have to do is give the tug crew time to perform the necessary repairs, while the on board medical crew takes care of the casualties from the disabled Dropship.


For the Jumpship economics, there was a post one place where one person had run the economics of Jumpships, and had calculated actual Docking costs, per class of Jumpship (and the larger ones were cheaper, true).  Wish I could find it again.
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Lieutenant
Posts: 1211

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

The JumpShip economics probably aren't that far off after all:

Consider that most existing JumpShips are decades or even centuries old. They were not bought at the prices you mention (these are 3025/3055 prices, while the relative cost of a JumpShip in the Star League time was low enough for one individual person to possess hundreds of JumpShips!), in many cases they were not purchased at all.
Conversely, few parties except for the Great Houses will purchase a JumpShip in the Succession Wars era. Other parties will have inherited or captured the JumpShip. For a Great House the idea is to have the ship, no matter what the cost, because they need it to ferry around troops or stuff.

The next step is to put the ship to good use. You are computing your numbers with $ 50.000 per Hardpoint per jump. I would rather expect the ship's owner (House or great company) to make more revenue than that out of every Hardpoint because they have a reason to purchase the JumpShip in the first place. Let's assume you have this great trade run into the periphery where your DropShips will make $ 200.000 net gain per trip, but no regular JS line is going that way (or you would have to take expensive detours). Suddenly it makes a lot of sense to buy a JS for yourself - the gain is greater than the investment.
Or if you are governor of a planet that will starve without their own JumpShip bringing in supplies.

I have always assumed that ComStar, the Houses and perhaps also the great companies maintain "bus routes" along certain important jump routes where you can sometimes hitch a jump. That's where the $ 50.000 fee comes in and makes sense. If a ship is going along its schedule with an empty Hardpoint, then t's just extra money for them to take you along.
It's only when you're going someplace off the beaten track that it gets really expensive...
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Captain
Posts: 2775
♀ Regulus ♀

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

Deja vu indeed.

I'm getting a vague feeling of deja vu in this thread.
Next thing you know, we'll be debating external cargo modules again, and there's only one place that can lead...

FASANOMICS!  Evil

Deja vu indeed.


And since there can never be too many FASAnomics threads there is another one....  Wink


http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,48251.msg1163389.html#msg1163389



But please, before you post - consider the Catgirls?  Grin
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 6476
Nicky K, right before his death.

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

Yeah, WM and Cray are nice guys but I'd still like to beat them up side of the head with the WTF stick for that ruling.

-Jackmc

When a Dropship is hauling something, its playing at Tug instead of Dropship. What that rule is REALLY for is to stop someone's munchkin 100kton Dropship "Tug" to attach to a Merchant.... with another 100kton Dropship attached, with another 100k dropship attached so on and forth.

Or how you could design a Tug that's, say the size of an Overlord and attach it to a Jumpship. With that sort of bit, you could make, say, an Invader carry six Overlords.
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Lieutenant
Posts: 1211

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

Tug =/= K-F Tug
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Major
Posts: 4163

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

For the Jumpship economics, there was a post one place where one person had run the economics of Jumpships, and had calculated actual Docking costs, per class of Jumpship (and the larger ones were cheaper, true).  Wish I could find it again.

Look on the Heavy Metal Pro boards.  I did a JS break even analysis over there back in 2003 or 2004.

-Jackmc
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Major
Posts: 4387
91st Argyllshire Highlanders

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

About regular spaceports . . .

Some of the fiction has space ports on large/important worlds use slabs raised and lowered by myomer.  When the ship is launching or landing, its fully extended coming even with the surface.  Once the ship has landed, they myomer relaxes, lowering the ship down into work areas.  Underground tunnels and bays for offloading cargo, either for cross-shipping to another bay to load or for the planet itself.  Repairs can also be done in certain bays as well.  Finally, at the edge of the landing zone they have blast sheilds to prevent the exhaust from blowing across the tarmac, something like the blast sheilds on carriers.

I would say that a important/high trade world would have this sort for commerical purposes.  Possibly even some sort of movement system that transports the DS to a 'standard' launching point.  Something sort of like the Shuttle, where it has ducts for all the superheated material that will loft the DS back into space.  Perhaps a gantry that will also provide the refueling point.

Other fiction also describes simple tarmac for them to land on with support vehicles moving out to work with the ship.

Military DS pads will probably not be as complicated as a high-traffic space port since they will not be moving traffic quite as often.  Though I will think they might have gantries for launching and perhaps quickloading of military equipment while the ship is refueling.
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Major
Posts: 4163

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

Possibly even some sort of movement system that transports the DS to a 'standard' launching point.

The game term is Mobile Structures and there's a good example of one in the cover art for FM:Fed Suns

-Jackmc
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Major
Posts: 4564
Zakus FTW!!

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

Well I made this a while ago.

Code:
                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  HLV 
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 2707
Vessel Type:       Spheroid DropShip
Rules:             Level 1, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              900 tons
Length:            50 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       3
Maximum Thrust:    5
Armor Type:        Standard
Armament:          None
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
The HLV or Heavy Lift Vehicle is an old Star leage era Dropship. It is a short
range transport configured to transport men and meterials to and from space.
The HLV is Still used by Innersphere and Clan forces dispite the fact that its
desigen is over 300 years old, and more modern and more efective transports
exist. 

The HLV is a small 900 ton Dropship with an impresive 500 ton cargo bay. HLVs
are commenly used to transport supplys too and from orbiting ships and ground
instilations. Whill HLVs are configured to transport supplys thy have been
known to squease up to six mechs into their cargo hold, though with out any
ability to maintain or repair them. In this guise thy are used to bring in
replacement units for front line forces.

Aside from the large 515 ton cargo bay the Standard HLV has a four man crew
which comprises of the ships captain, Pilot, flight engineer and mission
specialist. It also has room for up to 14 passenger's (though some varients
remove some or most of the births for more cargo capacity), these berths are
used mostly for bringing relief crews and or specialists to orbiting facility's.

One intersting feature of the HLV is the drive system for insted of four main
drive units found on most other dropships the HLV uses ten smaller drive
engines of 400,000 pounds* of thrust each these drive units are attached to the
hull via explosive bolts. (a similer system was used on the mammoth 100 years
later.) in the case of the main drive units being jettisoned there is a
redundant system of eight small "thrusters" on the rear portion of the main
hull to provide limited forword manoeuvrability.

The HLV is slow and completly unarmed and its low armor makes it a sitting
duck for enamy fighters- dispite this fact HLVs have been made in the
thousonds due to the fact that is cheap to make and operate. The most commen
Job the HLV serves now days is to bring supplys to and from orbiting factorys,
in this role thy have proved invaluable.

==Variants:==
While the standard HLV was a success in delivering crews and cargo. Its cheap
cost and wide availability have allowed some variants to appear, one of the
more commen variants increases the cargo capacity by about 16% at the expense
of much of its passanger capacity and some of its endurance (something the HLV
was never known for any way). Another is to remove a small amount of cargo
from the Base type and increase the range to 22 days over the standard 14
days, though this configuration is much rarer than the other two models. But
it dose alow it to better serve deep space facilitys and ships at jump points.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  HLV 
Mass:              900 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                          175.50
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 3
      Maximum Thrust: 5
Structural Integrity: 7                                                 13.00
Total Heat Sinks:    34 Single                                            .00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                      26.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                  7.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   .00
Food & Water:  (17 days supply)                                          1.50
Armor Type:  Standard  (412 total armor pts)                            24.00
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                103
   Left/Right Sides:                 103/103
   Aft:                                 103

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Cargo (1) with 1 door                                       515.00

Escape Pods:  4 (7 tons each)                                           28.00

Crew and Passengers:
      1 Officers (0 minimum)                                            10.00
      3 Crew (3 minimum)                                                21.00
     14 Steerage Passengers                                             70.00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.00%)                                                9.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                                Heat: 0         900.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        51,718,800 C-Bills
Battle Value:      859
Cost per BV:       60,208.15
Weapon Value:      0 (Ratio = .00)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 0;  MRV = 0;  LRV = 0;  ERV = 0
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 4,394
                   (1,399 Structure, 2,655 Life Support, 340 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 5,289  (120% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      MP: 3,  Armor/Structure: 7 / 7
                   Damage PB/M/L: -/-/-,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: DS;  Point Value: 9
                   Specials: sph

* Yes I know thy use metric, but im not gona change it for some silly nitpicking, the numbers still work.
*
Lieutenant
Posts: 1211

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

Browsing a little across LinkNet, I found this reference. Wonder what exactly "Star Barges" are...
Quote
Even now, the cleanup of the original Marsdenville, Wellington, and Palar continues as tons of radioactive debris are gathered and loaded aboard star-barges for off-world disposal.
(Source: Lyran Commonwealth history)
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 6704
Behold, I am come!

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

Yeah, WM and Cray are nice guys but I'd still like to beat them up side of the head with the WTF stick for that ruling.

-Jackmc

I dont think so, if a docked tug had its claws holding another dropship, the second one is effectively sticking out beyond the designed KF field fold... rendering jumping an exercise in atom mismanagement.

The rule also prevents you from taking a scout jumpship loaded down with 47 Elephant Dropships all holding eachother in a tower extending from the collar, like some  sorta AeroTech conga line  Grin
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Major
Posts: 4163

Re: Intersystem trade and the tug type DS

I dont think so, if a docked tug had its claws holding another dropship, the second one is effectively sticking out beyond the designed KF field fold... rendering jumping an exercise in atom mismanagement.

The rule also prevents you from taking a scout jumpship loaded down with 47 Elephant Dropships all holding eachother in a tower extending from the collar, like some  sorta AeroTech conga line  Grin

We might have to agree to disagree on this.  The mass for the tug adapter is enough to account for a kf field extender and the conga line could be avoided by saying that a tug adapter can only managed one additional drop shipe while being incompatible with other tug adapters and saying that a drop collar can only handle 100 kt period.

ie.  IF: Tugs on collar =<1 and total mass on collar =<100 kt, you're good to go
       ELSE: No Jump Possible

-Jackmc
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