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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 5588
Fox Claw Mercs: Ripping Through Armor
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Since we're dealing with arbitrary settings based on unlikely technologies, I can get an antimatter containment system that weighs less than the laser eqipment needed for a fusion bomb. Damn, we're at an impasse... Then I will switch to multistage fusion, and fuse my fuel from hydrogen all the way up to nickel-56. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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Well I was kinda thinking about a Drive failure and a " quick-charge " from a linked Fusion reactor(s).
To " Un " stick oneself from a bad spot....
I guess you could multiply the ship's thrust by its tonnage to get an effective "engine rating" for your onboard reactor, and then compare that to the engine ratings of whatever you're trying to quick charge from. ...You may want to see how many weeks of food you have on board. Now imagine the original battletech, where everything is breaking down and the only spare parts are from salvage. In that kind of situation of bad maintenance it might be too dangerous to use a not properly maintained fusion reactor as the output might be too erratic.
But wouldn't the Successor State navies eventually relearn to maintain their fusion reactors properly? I hate to be the bearer of bad news skiltao, but TenakaFurey is quite right.
He may well be, but I'm not certain I'm communicating the idea clearly. For instance, I've somehow given TenakaFurey the impression that static memory should hold the signal for a week, when in theory it would need to mutate alongside the other dynamic states in the drive core. Vacuum energy has no special aspect that will impress on electricity to make it any different than the electricity generated by a fusion engine. There is no signal that could be embedded in the current by vacuum field energy that could not be produced with equal or greater efficiency artificially. Your idea that fusion power can randomly generate this magical "signal" but is less efficient at it than a sail makes no sense when you apply entropy. If anything, the more compact nature of the fusion generator makes it less susceptible to variations in state
The fusion generator will be less susceptible, but not immune, correct? The variations will be small, minuscule, almost no noise at all. But suppose that the vacuum's signal is weaker than humans can measure, that the margin of error on the fusion-generated signal exceeds the whole of the sail-generated signal - the sound of a cat's footfall next to the fusion generator's whispering. Can man replicate that footfall efficiently and accurately if he does not know what signal the random quantum effects of nature are generating? Since there's a limited number of variables and a known range, at least the fusion generator could intermittently stumble across the correct signal, right? Variations in solar output (photonic or magnetic or anything else) don't seem like such a big hurdle compared to the rest of it... I suggested earlier that applying current to a KF-antennae might produce a weak KF effect on its own. Assuming that solar variations are broader than vacuum variations, perhaps the drive core "transistors" dynamically adjust themselves to the new solar baseline. (Coincidentally, this implies that the more power you dump into the drive core, the more the drive core resists you, making fast-charges hazardous, hot, and maintenance intensive). while a large solar collector will have entropy and random chance resulting in a more even distribution of entropy forces, resulting in a net "zero" state differential... meaning no signal at all.
I hope that's how the Star League researchers measure it. But if we suppose that a KF-Field has to be carefully aligned to its current position in space-time before it can jump and that this corresponds with matching the field to the surrounding vacuum energy (my opening premise), then the entropy forces aren't evenly distributed. Order out of chaos (or vice versa?) and all that. YMMV as always.  Your suggestions regarding maintenance always get good mileage.  |
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 5588
Fox Claw Mercs: Ripping Through Armor
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But wouldn't the Successor State navies eventually relearn to maintain their fusion reactors properly? Sure but not everyone has house trained technicians and using sails just might be a tradition/fixed procedure by then. |
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Demi-Precentor Mu/Psi IV
Moderator
Posts: 6850
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He may well be, but I'm not certain I'm communicating the idea clearly. For instance, I've somehow given TenakaFurey the impression that static memory should hold the signal for a week, when in theory it would need to mutate alongside the other dynamic states in the drive core. Which leads to the problem that if you can have the core "mutate", then it would need to do so in real time and thus be independent of the sail. Further, said mutation would be takign place as the capacitor was discharged and fed into the drive...meaning it would also affect the fusion generated system. It's best to just ignore this. If you accept fusion generators as they are portrayed....then ASFs can't have their performance. If you give ASFs their performance, JumpSails become meaningless. You can pick one or the other. The fusion generator will be less susceptible, but not immune, correct? No...what he is saying is that a fusion generator will be less susceptible to whatever process you envisage than the sail. In other words, the sail would be MORE susceptible. For one thing, the fusion engine is in a controlled environment and not subject to the random radiation of space. And then there are the various curents and fields that the sail tethers and conductors create, all of which are influenced by environment. To say nothing of the effect of the drive mechanism. And thats assuming an electron density gradient created by photovoltaic means is somehow different from one created by a fusion engine/generator system. I hope that's how the Star League researchers measure it. But if we suppose that a KF-Field has to be carefully aligned to its current position in space-time before it can jump and that this corresponds with matching the field to the surrounding vacuum energy (my opening premise), then the entropy forces aren't evenly distributed. Order out of chaos (or vice versa?) and all that. And again...ships move so that the KF drive can't be carefully aligned. Which means any such alignment must take place as the drive is sparked. Which makes it a technobabble answer lookign for a question. EJL |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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In modern physics and engineering, yes, power has no "flavor." But we're not talking about modern physics here.
The hard way or the easy way? When gangs of fanboys are accosting defenseless catgirls, Sheriffs Kearny and Fuchida are gonna need options. Sure but not everyone has house trained technicians and using sails just might be a tradition/fixed procedure by then.
Traditions get shaken up starting in the 3030s, and it seems to me that "fixed procedures" would change by the time the Houses start building their own WarShips. How long for new training to replace old inertia, do you think? By the end of the Jihad, maybe?  Which leads to the problem that if you can have the core "mutate", then it would need to do so in real time and thus be independent of the sail. Further, said mutation would be takign place as the capacitor was discharged and fed into the drive...meaning it would also affect the fusion generated system.
The charge already in the core mutates independently of the sail, and the charge flowing from the sail is modulated independently of the core. The patterns happen to match. Further, the capacitor is the drive core, so yes, the mutation is still taking place as the drive discharges into the KF-field. But the pattern being used to charge the drive core needs to match the pattern already inside the drive core. And as you note below, the fusion-generator is insulated from the vacuum effect- therefore it cannot have the needed pattern. It's best to just ignore this.
You'd save time by adding that to your sig.  If you accept fusion generators as they are portrayed....then ASFs can't have their performance. If you give ASFs their performance, JumpSails become meaningless. You can pick one or the other.
That choice implies that there are any circumstances where it's possible to accept ASF performance. No...what he is saying is that a fusion generator will be less susceptible to whatever process you envisage than the sail. In other words, the sail would be MORE susceptible. For one thing, the fusion engine is in a controlled environment and not subject to the random radiation of space.
Then what are we disagreeing about? My system only works if the sail is more susceptible.  And then there are the various curents and fields that the sail tethers and conductors create, all of which are influenced by environment. To say nothing of the effect of the drive mechanism.
Undesired radiation from space will be either systematic or intermittent (as defined by whether or not the drive core's "transistors" view the interference as a new baseline): if they're systematic, they can be countered the same way I addressed variations in solar energy; if they're intermittent, then however much of the sail is affected just has a mismatched signal for the duration (I never claimed the sails had a perfect conversion rate). And thats assuming an electron density gradient created by photovoltaic means is somehow different from one created by a fusion engine/generator system.
No. You could run photovoltaic-generated current through the sail or run fusion-generated current through the sail, and the drive core would accept both equally.* The assumption here is that the drive core can do more than merely store an electron density gradient, which seems safe to assume since the drive core does do more than act as a capacitor. *EDIT: at least, you can if the drive core's "transistors" view the fusion generator's natural variations at least partly as new baselines, or if the "transistors" compensate for solar/whatever baselines just enough to make the level of error similar to the fusion generator's normal level.And again...ships move so that the KF drive can't be carefully aligned. Which means any such alignment must take place as the drive is sparked.
As you noted earlier, the drive core is still "mutating" the charge in realtime as the KF-field sparks and expands, automatically aligning the field to wherever the ship happens to be at that moment. Which makes it a technobabble answer lookign for a question.
When I originally posed the explanation, verybad was willing to accept the existence and operation of KF-drives, but was unwilling to accept technobabble in any of the ship's other functions. My goal is to place all technobabble where it is tolerable. |
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Demi-Precentor Mu/Psi IV
Moderator
Posts: 6850
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The charge already in the core mutates independently of the sail, And it is irrelevant. The only "mutation" that is of consequence is the one that exists at the moment the power is used. At which point, it doens't matter where its been for the past week or hos it has been generated. And as you note below, the fusion-generator is insulated from the vacuum effect- therefore it cannot have the needed pattern. And so is the energy in the capacitor. Not only that, but by your understanding, the core doesn't have a pattern inside it. That choice implies that there are any circumstances where it's possible to accept ASF performance. Of course there are. This is a game. The problem being that it is a game with inherent limitations due to the need for flavour and balance. As a result, we have 5 ton fusion engines that can power 21st century earth but cannot produce enough power to equal that gathered by a solar sail over a week. Then what are we disagreeing about? My system only works if the sail is more susceptible. More susceptible to stuff which interefes with vacuum energy. Undesired radiation from space will be either systematic or intermittent (as defined by whether or not the drive core's "transistors" view the interference as a new baseline): if they're systematic, they can be countered the same way I addressed variations in solar energy; if they're intermittent, then however much of the sail is affected just has a mismatched signal for the duration (I never claimed the sails had a perfect conversion rate). Radiation...by its nature ...is random, though it can average out. What you've done, here, however, is create a variable recharging cycle. As you noted earlier, the drive core is still "mutating" the charge in realtime as the KF-field sparks and expands, automatically aligning the field to wherever the ship happens to be at that moment. The problem being that even if we accept this, it means that the mutation or energy feed from the sails is totally irrelevant. The "mutation" happens in real time...therefore it can modulate the fusion power in real time as well. EJL |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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The only "mutation" that is of consequence is the one that exists at the moment the power is used. At which point, it doens't matter where its been for the past week or hos it has been generated.
And so is the energy in the capacitor. Not only that, but by your understanding, the core doesn't have a pattern inside it.
<snip>
The problem being that even if we accept this, it means that the mutation or energy feed from the sails is totally irrelevant. The "mutation" happens in real time...therefore it can modulate the fusion power in real time as well.
The drive core has to be the capacitor. Assuming that its sheer size and design don't adequately insulate it from the rest of the ship, it's still a KF antennae designed to amplify KF fields. It magnifies the normally weak influence of whatever fields are induced by vacuum energy, to the point where (among other, unspecified effects) they form a mutating pattern of transistor-like areas throughout the drive core. If the drive has any charge inside at all, these various effects constantly modulate it into a pattern which corresponds with the ship's current time-space coordinates. But first you have to get that charge inside the capacitor/core, and the pattern of transistor-like areas only accept charge whose pattern already matches the pattern inside the core. More susceptible to stuff which interefes with vacuum energy.
Radiation...by its nature ...is random, though it can average out. What you've done, here, however, is create a variable recharging cycle.
The compact nature of the fusion power is actually a drawback: the size and shape of the sail is essential for collecting the right pattern (or else sails make no sense at all); given that, the sample volume's dimensions may play a part in correcting such errors. That other corrective measure ("transistors" adjusting to new baselines) shouldn't make the recharging cycle vary anymore than the radiation does. EDIT: so it would even out.Of course there are. This is a game. The problem being that it is a game with inherent limitations due to the need for flavour and balance. As a result, we have 5 ton fusion engines that can power 21st century earth but cannot produce enough power to equal that gathered by a solar sail over a week.
Yeah, and I thought we were discussing what would or wouldn't be physically consistent with how other stuff works in the rest of that fictional universe. ASF performance is one of the first things to abandon if we're looking for that kind of consistency. |
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Major
Posts: 3543
The FWL: Who says Civil War can't be fun?
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Actually no, he be lucky to get even a few watts from vacuum energy. Perpetual Motion machines aren't possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energyIn terms of energy generation, the best you can do is Antimatter. Which shoudl be roughly 25 times as effective...overall...to fusion. It is probably possible to generate usuable ammounts of antimatter in fusion plants, but the process wouldn't be cheap. There is nothing more powerful than antimatter if a device fails. A fusion plant just shuts down. Antimatter will make nukes look like firecrackers mass for mass. Wiki is not a reliable scientific data source. Try this source: Calphysics Institute: Zero Point Energy and Zero Point FieldBuried in that page you find the following: From this line of reasoning, quantum physics predicts that all of space must be filled with electromagnetic zero-point fluctuations (also called the zero-point field) creating a universal sea of zero-point energy. The density of this energy depends critically on where in frequency the zero-point fluctuations cease. Since space itself is thought to break up into a kind of quantum foam at a tiny distance scale called the Planck scale (10-33 cm), it is argued that the zero point fluctuations must cease at a corresponding Planck frequency (1043 Hz). If that is the case, the zero-point energy density would be 110 orders of magnitude greater than the radiant energy at the center of the Sun. 110 orders of magnitude greater than the radiant energy at the center of the Sun... trillions upon trillions of times more energy dense than antimatter. Now... how do we access this potential energy? That is an excellent question!  He may well be, but I'm not certain I'm communicating the idea clearly. For instance, I've somehow given TenakaFurey the impression that static memory should hold the signal for a week, when in theory it would need to mutate alongside the other dynamic states in the drive core.
The fusion generator will be less susceptible, but not immune, correct? The variations will be small, minuscule, almost no noise at all. But suppose that the vacuum's signal is weaker than humans can measure, that the margin of error on the fusion-generated signal exceeds the whole of the sail-generated signal - the sound of a cat's footfall next to the fusion generator's whispering. Can man replicate that footfall efficiently and accurately if he does not know what signal the random quantum effects of nature are generating? Since there's a limited number of variables and a known range, at least the fusion generator could intermittently stumble across the correct signal, right?
Variations in solar output (photonic or magnetic or anything else) don't seem like such a big hurdle compared to the rest of it... I suggested earlier that applying current to a KF-antennae might produce a weak KF effect on its own. Assuming that solar variations are broader than vacuum variations, perhaps the drive core "transistors" dynamically adjust themselves to the new solar baseline. (Coincidentally, this implies that the more power you dump into the drive core, the more the drive core resists you, making fast-charges hazardous, hot, and maintenance intensive).
I hope that's how the Star League researchers measure it. But if we suppose that a KF-Field has to be carefully aligned to its current position in space-time before it can jump and that this corresponds with matching the field to the surrounding vacuum energy (my opening premise), then the entropy forces aren't evenly distributed. Order out of chaos (or vice versa?) and all that. I think your understanding of vacuum energy may be outdated. We know a lot more about it than we used to even just a few years ago. According to current models, vacuum energy has no reference frame in Special Relativity. Thus, there is no space-time state that can be obtained from vacuum energy. If you can elaborate on this line of thought, we might be able to get further. We keep getting away from the core issue: Fusion charging uses too much hydrogen to be scientifically explainable. In order for sense to be made, we should stay focused on the real issue. Your suggestions regarding maintenance always get good mileage. Thanks! It's nice to know my work is appreciated from time to time.  Which leads to the problem that if you can have the core "mutate", then it would need to do so in real time and thus be independent of the sail. Further, said mutation would be takign place as the capacitor was discharged and fed into the drive...meaning it would also affect the fusion generated system.
It's best to just ignore this. If you accept fusion generators as they are portrayed....then ASFs can't have their performance. If you give ASFs their performance, JumpSails become meaningless. You can pick one or the other. Here I will have to disagree. There are applications for the use of a sail that make a fusion reactor a less ideal system. Sails have attributes that make them appealing for reasons other than power potential. Knowing that the core itself has a safe charge speed limit that is within a close order of magnitude of the power potential of a solar sail, and given the low mass requirement, low maintenance requirements, and redundancy having a sail provides, the question changes from "Why have a sail?" to "Why not have a sail?" The only thing a secondary fusion reactor has in its favor would be an even smaller mass requirement than the sail, but then in most cases we're only talking about a difference of a few dozen tons. In the end, what do those few tons gain you? A few hours saved and a handful of extra weapons? What does it cost you? You'll need additional maintenance and supervision for the secondary reactor, (requiring extra crew and supplies which will eat into the weight savings) and the reactor is fuel dependent. So if you suffer a fuel problem, you can't charge the drive at all until the problem is solved. Multi-megawatt solar sails make a good secondary system for a fusion-based power system... and if you are including a sail as a backup, you might as well use it for free energy. No...what he is saying is that a fusion generator will be less susceptible to whatever process you envisage than the sail. In other words, the sail would be MORE susceptible. For one thing, the fusion engine is in a controlled environment and not subject to the random radiation of space. And then there are the various curents and fields that the sail tethers and conductors create, all of which are influenced by environment. To say nothing of the effect of the drive mechanism. And thats assuming an electron density gradient created by photovoltaic means is somehow different from one created by a fusion engine/generator system.
And again...ships move so that the KF drive can't be carefully aligned. Which means any such alignment must take place as the drive is sparked. Which makes it a technobabble answer lookign for a question.
EJL Other than a little pronoun trouble, you got it pretty much right on. Vacuum energy state absorption cannot be the solution. There's too many reasons for it not to be an adequate explanation. The drive core has to be the capacitor. Assuming that its sheer size and design don't adequately insulate it from the rest of the ship, it's still a KF antennae designed to amplify KF fields. It magnifies the normally weak influence of whatever fields are induced by vacuum energy, to the point where (among other, unspecified effects) they form a mutating pattern of transistor-like areas throughout the drive core.
If the drive has any charge inside at all, these various effects constantly modulate it into a pattern which corresponds with the ship's current time-space coordinates. But first you have to get that charge inside the capacitor/core, and the pattern of transistor-like areas only accept charge whose pattern already matches the pattern inside the core. I agree that the charge must be stored in the drive by design of the way K-F cores are engineered, but the space-time state of the area the ship charges in does not in any way remain constant. Per Strat Ops pg. 89, you can even charge the drive with the sail while moving, so there goes that theory even if vacuum energy does have a space-time reference frame and current theory is dead wrong. Furthermore, even in a normal charge cycle of a ship stationary over a star, the space-time state is constantly changing because the star is in motion through the universe and time is passing, so the space-time state you would "impress" on the charge at the beginning of the charge cycle will be widely different from the space-time state collected in the last few seconds of the charge cycle. All things considered, your explanation just doesn't match the observed facts. It's an interesting theory, but it just doesn't work in too many areas that cannot be ignored. The compact nature of the fusion power is actually a drawback: the size and shape of the sail is essential for collecting the right pattern (or else sails make no sense at all); given that, the sample volume's dimensions may play a part in correcting such errors. That other corrective measure ("transistors" adjusting to new baselines) shouldn't make the recharging cycle vary anymore than the radiation does. EDIT: so it would even out. This is another thing I wanted to point out as inconsistent in your theory is the idea that fusion energy would be less efficient at generating this special "signal". You had said that fusion reactions would generate a small number of these "signals" so that the K-F Drive can still operate without a sail. The problem with that line of thinking is that in order to do what you're describing, the "signal" would have to be filtered out of all the "noise". In order for the fusion reactor to provide the energy with the right "signal", the energy with the wrong "signal" would have to be screened out. In order to screen it, you would have to know what the right "signal" is. If you know what the right "signal" is, you can generate it artificially without even needing the fusion reactor to do it for you. Then you're back to the question of why you can't use the full power output of the fusion reactor with an artificially imbedded "signal", once more leaving fusion consuming far to much hydrogen for the power output. Yeah, and I thought we were discussing what would or wouldn't be physically consistent with how other stuff works in the rest of that fictional universe. ASF performance is one of the first things to abandon if we're looking for that kind of consistency. Unfortunately, the energy output of ASF and 'Mechs are easily quantifiable and they are gigantic. The only way to fix those issues is to scale ASF performance back by several orders of magnitude, which makes them barely better than what we can do with rockets today. It requires a complete rethinking of the setting, which kills the feel of the universe and we're not playing BattleTech anymore... we're playing something else. Not a good direction.  YMMV as always. |
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Lieutenant
Posts: 1190
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It's better than ASF performance under AT1, is it not? IIRC the pilots would be pancakes in those things without some sort of intertial handwaving.
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Demi-Precentor Mu/Psi IV
Moderator
Posts: 6850
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Here I will have to disagree. There are applications for the use of a sail that make a fusion reactor a less ideal system. Sails have attributes that make them appealing for reasons other than power potential. Knowing that the core itself has a safe charge speed limit that is within a close order of magnitude of the power potential of a solar sail, and given the low mass requirement, low maintenance requirements, and redundancy having a sail provides, the question changes from "Why have a sail?" to "Why not have a sail?" Instant power form the fusion core. Jumps on demand. MNo 7 day waiting period. And, at worst, a 1 ton engine replacing a multi ton solar sail. Which is not the issue. I can justify the use of the sail in a fusion rich environment. Cost. Maintenance. Convenience. Whatever. What I personally cannot think of any reason to justify is the in ability of fusion generators, which we know have a far, far, fra greater output, not to give the performance they should. That's notto say one can't be given...but I haven't seen any suitable to date. As I understand his position, skiltao is putting forward the notion that fusion power is simply - filtered - because it requires a certain kind of power/flavour to poer the drive. 99.99999999% is thus thrown away. Hence it still takes a week to recharge. I don't think ti works that way. EJL |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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That's the essentials, yeah. I think your understanding of vacuum energy may be outdated. We know a lot more about it than we used to even just a few years ago. According to current models, vacuum energy has no reference frame in Special Relativity. Thus, there is no space-time state that can be obtained from vacuum energy.
If you can elaborate on this line of thought, we might be able to get further. We keep getting away from the core issue: Fusion charging uses too much hydrogen to be scientifically explainable. In order for sense to be made, we should stay focused on the real issue.
My understanding of vacuum energy is outdated, without a doubt. "However, the physicists' theories conflicted with the known laws of Einsteinian physics" (BattleSpace p20) so it's possible -or even necessary- to have a reference frame outside of Special Relativity. My solution to the core issue is to say that yes, some of the fuel is burned, but an overwhelming portion of the energy is denied by the drive core. Denying that much energy is hazardous, so go ahead and use the rest of the fuel as coolant. Your use of vacuum energy is much less convoluted, and apparently generates energy on par with the amount of hydrogen used in fusion charging. With your explanation, would you still have to scale back the fuel use? I agree that the charge must be stored in the drive by design of the way K-F cores are engineered, but the space-time state of the area the ship charges in does not in any way remain constant. Per Strat Ops pg. 89, you can even charge the drive with the sail while moving, so there goes that theory even if vacuum energy does have a space-time reference frame and current theory is dead wrong.
Furthermore, even in a normal charge cycle of a ship stationary over a star, the space-time state is constantly changing because the star is in motion through the universe and time is passing, so the space-time state you would "impress" on the charge at the beginning of the charge cycle will be widely different from the space-time state collected in the last few seconds of the charge cycle.
The drive self-modulates its charge in real-time based on the ship's current space-time state, so it doesn't matter that the space-time state of the area changes. (If you graphed the state of the drive charge as a function of the KF reference frame, it might progress somewhat like this toy does.) This is another thing I wanted to point out as inconsistent in your theory is the idea that fusion energy would be less efficient at generating this special "signal". You had said that fusion reactions would generate a small number of these "signals" so that the K-F Drive can still operate without a sail. The problem with that line of thinking is that in order to do what you're describing, the "signal" would have to be filtered out of all the "noise". In order for the fusion reactor to provide the energy with the right "signal", the energy with the wrong "signal" would have to be screened out. In order to screen it, you would have to know what the right "signal" is. If you know what the right "signal" is, you can generate it artificially without even needing the fusion reactor to do it for you. Then you're back to the question of why you can't use the full power output of the fusion reactor with an artificially imbedded "signal", once more leaving fusion consuming far to much hydrogen for the power output.
The drive "knows" what the right signal is, and it filters out the noise. That's what makes fast-charging dangerous - the crew has to deal with all that noise coming back at them (or whatever else happens to the mind-boggling levels of excess energy). All things considered, your explanation just doesn't match the observed facts. It's an interesting theory, but it just doesn't work in too many areas that cannot be ignored.
Anymore areas or facts? Unfortunately, the energy output of ASF and 'Mechs are easily quantifiable and they are gigantic. The only way to fix those issues is to scale ASF performance back by several orders of magnitude, which makes them barely better than what we can do with rockets today. It requires a complete rethinking of the setting, which kills the feel of the universe and we're not playing BattleTech anymore... we're playing something else. Not a good direction. YMMV as always. Agreed, that's why I'm abandoning 'em as benchmarks. |
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Demi-Precentor Mu/Psi IV
Moderator
Posts: 6850
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That's the essentials, yeah. And unfortuantely doesn't work that way. You are trying to say that the electron that flows into the drive is different if it "originates" in the sail. But it doesn't. We know the sail is photovoltaic...so we know it converts light and a lot of EM power into electricty. But the resulting flow of electrons will be different from that "stored" in the drive. As stated repeatedly, there is no information for this power to store, and there is no way for this power to store the info if there was any. Furtehr, because you state that the drive needs to self modulate in real time...then it can do this with the fusion generator as well. What you seem to be saying is that the sail is affected by vacuum energy in such a way that it generates a certain type of power, and that this modulation is due to the time-space at the point the ship was charging. The drive then modulates this power feed when it is used with the time space coordinates at that time. But if we assume your theory is true, then the drive either doesn't need to modulate the feed as that is what the sial does,. or the sail doesn't need to filter the feed....as that is what the drive does. Unfortunately, since there is no way to store information via capacitor, then the drive modulatign the feed makes mroe sense. But in this case, that means it can also modulate a fusion power source. meanhwile, if we say the sail does the joib...the space time coordinates you posit aren't linked at all with the coords at the time the drive is actually powered up. There is no simple fix to this question. It is simply a feature of the universe. Liek FASA economics, it is better to simply close your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist. EJL |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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You are trying to say that the electron that flows into the drive is different if it "originates" in the sail. But it doesn't. We know the sail is photovoltaic...so we know it converts light and a lot of EM power into electricty. But the resulting flow of electrons will be different from that "stored" in the drive.
As stated repeatedly, there is no information for this power to store,
Could have a photovoltaic source, could have a magnetohydrodynamic source. It doesn't matter as long as the current flows through the sail on its way to the drive. The vacuum energy impresses a pattern of transistor-like effects onto the drive core, and that pattern forces the charge "stored" in the drive into an inverted pattern. The vacuum energy impresses the same (or sufficiently similar) inverted pattern directly onto any electric flow which passes through the sail. This whole thing is premised on the idea that the vacuum energy does contain information vital to forming the KF field, and no one has yet explained why this couldn't possibly be true in the BattleTech universe. Impossible for the real world understanding of Special Relativity, sure, but the fact that BattleTech can teleport kiloton objects implies a rather significant difference in one or more physical properties somewhere. Vacuum energy happens to be otherwise inconsequential to the day-to-day events of the BT universe, so it's a relatively safe expression of that difference. and there is no way for this power to store the info if there was any.
The KF drive core is canonically responsible for expanding the KF field and molding that field into the proper shape. Such feats are above and beyond the capabilities of a mere capacitor, and imply that information is somehow being stored. It's not so much that the core itself is storing the information; it's more like... imagine (and this won't be a perfect analogy ) that you've emptied a toolbox and a toychest onto the floor; and that you've laid a blanket on top of the stuff; and you've put a handful of marbles on top of the blanket; and that you're slowly dragging the blanket across the floor. The marbles (the charge) mostly stay on the blanket (the drive core), but they're forced to move in patterns dictated by the stuff underneath (the vacuum energy). So really it's the vacuum energy that's storing the information, and a fully charged drive core merely keeps touch with it for when it's needed. Furtehr, because you state that the drive needs to self modulate in real time...then it can do this with the fusion generator as well.
The drive can only modulate whatever charge happens to be inside the core, which is complicated by the notion that pushing any current at all into the drive will generate its own weak KF effect. If this new KF effect matches the patterns already inside the core, then charge flows; if the effect doesn't match the patterns inside the core, then it forms a blockage. The worse the mismatch and the more mismatched current you push, the stronger the blockage gets; it scales with both. How do you get the fusion-generated current past that? What you seem to be saying is that the sail is affected by vacuum energy in such a way that it generates a certain type of power, and that this modulation is due to the time-space at the point the ship was charging.
Correct so far. The drive then modulates this power feed when it is used with the time space coordinates at that time.
The drive core is always modulating the stored charge, anytime there's any stored charge. All day, everyday. But if we assume your theory is true, then the drive either doesn't need to modulate the feed as that is what the sial does,. or the sail doesn't need to filter the feed....as that is what the drive does.
When the pattern riding on the sail's feed doesn't match the pattern inside the core (no one really wants to give the sail a 100% efficient conversion rate, right?), the pattern inside the core actively resists the sail's feed. The feed is blocked, cut. Unfortunately, since there is no way to store information via capacitor, then the drive modulatign the feed makes mroe sense. But in this case, that means it can also modulate a fusion power source. meanhwile, if we say the sail does the joib...the space time coordinates you posit aren't linked at all with the coords at the time the drive is actually powered up.
Addressed above. There is no simple fix to this question. It is simply a feature of the universe. Liek FASA economics, it is better to simply close your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist.
See, that's nearly what I'd like to do with ASFs. I just need to get a single, cure-all scaling factor in case I ever actually want to translate physical effects from non-ASF context to ASF context or vice versa. |
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 5588
Fox Claw Mercs: Ripping Through Armor
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Could have a photovoltaic source, could have a magnetohydrodynamic source. It doesn't matter as long as the current flows through the sail on its way to the drive. The vacuum energy impresses a pattern of transistor-like effects onto the drive core, and that pattern forces the charge "stored" in the drive into an inverted pattern. The vacuum energy impresses the same (or sufficiently similar) inverted pattern directly onto any electric flow which passes through the sail. This whole thing is premised on the idea that the vacuum energy does contain information vital to forming the KF field, and no one has yet explained why this couldn't possibly be true in the BattleTech universe. Impossible for the real world understanding of Special Relativity, sure, but the fact that BattleTech can teleport kiloton objects implies a rather significant difference in one or more physical properties somewhere. Vacuum energy happens to be otherwise inconsequential to the day-to-day events of the BT universe, so it's a relatively safe expression of that difference. Even with your physics, simply sails don't have any exotic materials, so any other device with current or a charge is likely to have the same effect. Such as drive cores. So they wouldn't need sails. The KF drive core is canonically responsible for expanding the KF field and molding that field into the proper shape. Such feats are above and beyond the capabilities of a mere capacitor, and imply that information is somehow being stored. Nope, it is mere computer controlled field manipulation. Most of the drive core is simply a capacitor and/or field conductor. The drive can only modulate whatever charge happens to be inside the core, which is complicated by the notion that pushing any current at all into the drive will generate its own weak KF effect. If this new KF effect matches the patterns already inside the core, then charge flows; if the effect doesn't match the patterns inside the core, then it forms a blockage. The worse the mismatch and the more mismatched current you push, the stronger the blockage gets; it scales with both. How do you get the fusion-generated current past that? The sails are likely to have even less constant vacuum energy spinned electrons. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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Even with your physics, simply sails don't have any exotic materials, so any other device with current or a charge is likely to have the same effect. Such as drive cores. So they wouldn't need sails.
Sure they do- that "photochemical which absorbs nearly all forms of energy." If that ain't exotic, nothing is. And how else do you explain the hundred-fold decrease in surface area during their first couple centuries? The KF drive core is canonically responsible for expanding the KF field and molding that field into the proper shape. Such feats are above and beyond the capabilities of a mere capacitor, and imply that information is somehow being stored. Nope, it is mere computer controlled field manipulation. Most of the drive core is simply a capacitor and/or field conductor. Really? Looks like a pretty good definition of "Field Conductor" to me. Once the field is fully expanded, then the computer can take over and handle the complicated part. The sails are likely to have even less constant vacuum energy spinned electrons.
Not as long as there's some kind of exotic material on the sail which absorbs nearly any form of energy. Or some other bit of pre-Star League engineering - Terran Alliance researchers were pretty clever with materials science. Besides, there's no real reason not to decide that the size and shape of the sail are a key factor in picking up the correct pattern. |
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 5588
Fox Claw Mercs: Ripping Through Armor
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Sure they do- that "photochemical which absorbs nearly all forms of energy." If that ain't exotic, nothing is. And how else do you explain the hundred-fold decrease in surface area during their first couple centuries? Its a photochemical, the name says it all, it only absorbs photons. Or else it wouldn't be a photochemical. Really? Looks like a pretty good definition of "Field Conductor" to me. Once the field is fully expanded, then the computer can take over and handle the complicated part. No, the field must be shaped during the expansion. This is one of the reasons why docking collars are so expensive and will never be modular. Besides, there's no real reason not to decide that the size and shape of the sail are a key factor in picking up the correct pattern. The size is a problem, because its so large there is no way to prevent renormalization problems. |
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Demi-Precentor Mu/Psi IV
Moderator
Posts: 6850
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Could have a photovoltaic source, could have a magnetohydrodynamic source. It doesn't matter as long as the current flows through the sail on its way to the drive. The vacuum energy impresses a pattern of transistor-like effects onto the drive core, and that pattern forces the charge "stored" in the drive into an inverted pattern. The vacuum energy impresses the same (or sufficiently similar) inverted pattern directly onto any electric flow which passes through the sail. So….vacuum energy requires a vacuum which is why the sail is needed. But….the vacuum energy influences the drive core which isn’t in a vacuum? And now we have the sail going from the capacitor to the sail to be impressed with vacuum energy on its way to the drive? And again…you cannot impress information on an electrical current. You can modulate aspecst of the current – change its voltage, frequency, etc - to convey information but that isn’t what you seem to be suggesting happens, and even if it did, it can be duplicated. Not only that, but you cannot have physical separation of the drive and core and have both obtain the same modulation. Lets us assume that your theory is true…then the random nature and scale of the system would ensure that what would work at one poiut of the drive would be different at another. The energy impressed by the sail would be different from that required by the drive even if they were treated as discrete systems. This whole thing is premised on the idea that the vacuum energy does contain information vital to forming the KF field, and no one has yet explained why this couldn't possibly be true in the BattleTech universe. No…it premised on the idea that vacuum energy does contain information vital to forming the KF field, that it can impress this information on a simple electrical current, that that information will survive storage and that it will be relevant at least a week afterwards once a second current is generated by the capacitor and used to power the drive core. The KF drive core is canonically responsible for expanding the KF field and molding that field into the proper shape. Such feats are above and beyond the capabilities of a mere capacitor, and imply that information is somehow being stored. No. It doesn’t. A bar of iron can expand a magnetic field, and I can also use it as part of a system to hold a charge. I cannot use it as an information storage device, nor does the presence of the magnetic field imply anything or convey information except that there is a field. It's not so much that the core itself is storing the information; it's more like... imagine (and this won't be a perfect analogy ) that you've emptied a toolbox and a toychest onto the floor; and that you've laid a blanket on top of the stuff; and you've put a handful of marbles on top of the blanket; and that you're slowly dragging the blanket across the floor. The marbles (the charge) mostly stay on the blanket (the drive core), but they're forced to move in patterns dictated by the stuff underneath (the vacuum energy). So really it's the vacuum energy that's storing the information, and a fully charged drive core merely keeps touch with it for when it's needed. Vacuum energy doesn’t have thats effect. Even if it did, an electrical current is simply the movement of electrons. Those electrons you say are influenced by the vacuum energy? They’re staying in the core. The drive can only modulate whatever charge happens to be inside the core, which is complicated by the notion that pushing any current at all into the drive will generate its own weak KF effect. If this new KF effect matches the patterns already inside the core, then charge flows; if the effect doesn't match the patterns inside the core, then it forms a blockage. The worse the mismatch and the more mismatched current you push, the stronger the blockage gets; it scales with both. How do you get the fusion-generated current past that? By pointing out that what you propose can’t happen. The core is going to get charegd because that’s what capacitors do. Your system, should it work, would mean the charging process could take 1 hour…it could take a year depending on the vagaries of chance. Not only that but your system dictates that there are charges in the drive which must match the charges being transferred. The trouble being this doesn’t require a sail….because you’d simply be hoping the charges form a week ago and a different location would match the charges that are occurring now. Not only that, but the system will be different within the drive core itself. And that it requires vacuum energy to be present without a vacuum. And that it is of sufficient strength and power that it actually has an effect on the field. And…. The drive core is always modulating the stored charge, anytime there's any stored charge. All day, everyday. At which point I can trot out the “it can do that with fusion power then” line. When the pattern riding on the sail's feed doesn't match the pattern inside the core (no one really wants to give the sail a 100% efficient conversion rate, right?), the pattern inside the core actively resists the sail's feed. The feed is blocked, cut. Which means your sail charging time is now completely random. And it can’t match the pattern – its several hundred metres behind the ship and so privy to completely different info. See, that's nearly what I'd like to do with ASFs. I just need to get a single, cure-all scaling factor in case I ever actually want to translate physical effects from non-ASF context to ASF context or vice versa.
And, as pointed out earlier, if you do that with ASF engines, you really change a lot of the universe because it impacts on all aspects on space travel. To get rid of this problem, you need to redesign the system almost from scratch. EJL |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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Its a photochemical, the name says it all, it only absorbs photons. Or else it wouldn't be a photochemical.
Who says that's the only exotic material on or in the sail? Its presence sets a precedent, and unless you're suggesting that the chemical yields better than 100% photon absorption (which would solve our primary issue), it cannot be responsible for the hundred-fold reduction in sail size. No, the field must be shaped during the expansion. This is one of the reasons why docking collars are so expensive and will never be modular.
The field is being shaped during the expansion. It's being shaped in such a simple and straightforward manner, like an exceptionally flexible water snake being poured into a funny shaped vase (it self-propagates while filling the container), that a computer isn't needed at this step. Doesn't the use of docking collars tend to reinforce the drive core's role here? The drive-controller can reshape the field once it's expanded. The size is a problem, because its so large there is no way to prevent renormalization problems.
Is renormalization a problem if we assume that the entropic forces aren't evenly distributed? I wouldn't be surprised if some degree of normalization actually turned out to be essential to the process, but it ought to at least be possible to mix a together a number of individual inputs, send 'em along a disproportionately scant handful of separate transmission lines, then remix and parse them back into the individual components. Sure, there'll be problems, but who wants 100% efficient conversion? It only has to be better than the rate you'd get by chance variations. |
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 5588
Fox Claw Mercs: Ripping Through Armor
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Who says that's the only exotic material on or in the sail? A photochemical isn't exotic, and jump sails are cheap. Its presence sets a precedent, and unless you're suggesting that the chemical yields better than 100% photon absorption (which would solve our primary issue), it cannot be responsible for the hundred-fold reduction in sail size. That is a combination of an imaginary problem and circular reasoning. The field is being shaped during the expansion. It's being shaped in such a simple and straightforward manner, like an exceptionally flexible water snake being poured into a funny shaped vase (it self-propagates while filling the container), that a computer isn't needed at this step. Doesn't the use of docking collars tend to reinforce the drive core's role here? The drive-controller can reshape the field once it's expanded. It not a volume based field but mass based. Is renormalization a problem if we assume that the entropic forces aren't evenly distributed? I wouldn't be surprised if some degree of normalization actually turned out to be essential to the process, but it ought to at least be possible to mix a together a number of individual inputs, send 'em along a disproportionately scant handful of separate transmission lines, then remix and parse them back into the individual components. Sure, there'll be problems, but who wants 100% efficient conversion? It only has to be better than the rate you'd get by chance variations. The renormalization occurs within the length of several particles. Skiltao, vacuum energy and KF drives are a complete mismatch. To make even slightly good technobabble, they need to match. Right now it sounds like using a week old Big Mac to run a computer program instead of a computer. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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So….vacuum energy requires a vacuum which is why the sail is needed. But….the vacuum energy influences the drive core which isn’t in a vacuum?
Yes. The drive core amplifies it, but it amplifies everything indiscriminately, which interferes with the recharging process. The sail can't amplify, but it can discriminate. And now we have the sail going from the capacitor to the sail to be impressed with vacuum energy on its way to the drive?
No. Photovoltaic starts with the solar sail and ends at the core. You could hypothetically (and perhaps a few very early sail designs did this) generate power from the ship's fusion plant, and send it first to the sail and then to the core. And again…you cannot impress information on an electrical current. You can modulate aspecst of the current – change its voltage, frequency, etc - to convey information
I'm being careless with my shorthand and have been using information, signal, pattern, and similar words to refer to those modulations. but that isn’t what you seem to be suggesting happens, and even if it did, it can be duplicated.
How do you duplicate those modulations when your instruments are not delicate enough to detect them, and your "controlled" source of power (the fusion generator) overwhelms them with its own noise? Not only that, but you cannot have physical separation of the drive and core and have both obtain the same modulation.
Assuming you mean "drive core" and "sail," I've been picturing the vacuum energy as tessellating just enough for this to work. My apologies for not noticing & clarifying that earlier.  Lets us assume that your theory is true…then the random nature and scale of the system would ensure that what would work at one poiut of the drive would be different at another. The energy impressed by the sail would be different from that required by the drive even if they were treated as discrete systems.
A good reason to control the size/shape/position/orientation of the sail, so that it picks up the right section of the tessellation. No…it premised on the idea that vacuum energy does contain information vital to forming the KF field, that it can impress this information on a simple electrical current,
Correct so far. that that information will survive storage and that it will be relevant at least a week afterwards once a second current is generated by the capacitor and used to power the drive core.
No. First, the capacitor and the drive core are not separate, discrete devices. The charge that powers the drive core is the charge that is stored in the drive core. The pattern doesn't need to survive storage, because it is constantly being altered to match the ship's current position. It is constantly being altered by the ship's current position... to match the ship's current position. For the charging process, it only matters that the pattern coming from the sail right this second matches whatever pattern is in the drive right this second. Once the drive is fully charged, the pattern will continue to changing so that, at any given moment, it corresponds with the ship's current frame of reference. No. It doesn’t. A bar of iron can expand a magnetic field, and I can also use it as part of a system to hold a charge. I cannot use it as an information storage device, nor does the presence of the magnetic field imply anything or convey information except that there is a field.
The shape of the iron bar informs the shape of the magnetic field. Furthermore, an electromagnet can do things an iron bar can't, and an electromagnet which is simultaneously a capacitor can do things a simple electromagnet can't. Dump a bunch of iron filings (the charge) onto an iron bar (the drive core) and then pass the iron bar over and through a variety of magnetic fields- that device will not only tell that there is a field, but also the relative strength & position & direction. Vacuum energy doesn’t have thats effect.
Vacuum energy, by definition, includes KF fields. A KF drive, charged or not, picks up and screws around with KF fields. Even if it did, an electrical current is simply the movement of electrons. Those electrons you say are influenced by the vacuum energy? They’re staying in the core.
I agree. They need to be there, a full charge, in exactly whatever pattern happens to be dictated by the vacuum energy at the very moment when the KF initiator sparks. Your system, should it work, would mean the charging process could take 1 hour…it could take a year depending on the vagaries of chance.
Bah. What variations are so large, that we aren't already dictating them at whim? By pointing out that what you propose can’t happen. The core is going to get charegd because that’s what capacitors do.
The drive core is no mere capacitor. For instance, applying charge to it can do funny things to KF fields. I'm just postulating the particulars of what "funny things" can happen below the realm of a full charge. Not only that but your system dictates that there are charges in the drive which must match the charges being transferred.
You have that backwards- the charges being transferred must match the charges in the drive, because otherwise the drive will generate "funny" (inconvenient) field effects. The trouble being this doesn’t require a sail….because you’d simply be hoping the charges form a week ago and a different location would match the charges that are occurring now.
No. See the tessellation & constant mutation thing. Not only that, but the system will be different within the drive core itself. And that it requires vacuum energy to be present without a vacuum. And that it is of sufficient strength and power that it actually has an effect on the field. And….
Yeah, my whole plan rests on that. The vacuum energy is weak, but the drive core is a multi-kiloton device designed for the express purpose of expanding KF fields. And you can't turn it off. And vacuum energy has KF fields. So the drive core will enlarge them. It is convenient for me If they reach a size that is able to modulate the flow of electrons within the drive core. At which point I can trot out the “it can do that with fusion power then” line.
The fusion generator does not enlarge KF fields. If it did, you wouldn't need the drive core at all. But we do need a drive core, and when you apply current to a drive core, you create a weak KF effect. Therefore, unless you first send this fusion-generated power out to the sail, whatever pattern is created by the new KF effect will not match whatever pattern is being induced in the core by the vacuum energy. Which means your sail charging time is now completely random.
No, it means the sail charging time is now random within a certain negligible range which evens out over hours, let alone days. And it can’t match the pattern – its several hundred metres behind the ship and so privy to completely different info.
Tessellation. And, as pointed out earlier, if you do that with ASF engines, you really change a lot of the universe because it impacts on all aspects on space travel. To get rid of this problem, you need to redesign the system almost from scratch.
I never said a thing about changing ASF engines. Y'know how weapon ranges increase 600-fold when you move from the ground to in space? I want a scalar factor like that to convert physics between the two. Accept the dichotomy, embrace the dichotomy! The two are separate and irreconcilable, so they should not be used as benchmarks for each other. But I still want to be able to translate physics from a MechWarrior's frame of reference, to an AeroJock's frame of reference, and back, and have the physics make sense within the separate frames of reference. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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A photochemical isn't exotic, and jump sails are cheap.
Metal armor isn't exotic either, but that doesn't excuse BattleMech armor. And everything is cheap here. That is a combination of an imaginary problem and circular reasoning.
The solar sails, pre-Star League, were more than 50km across. Equivalent Star League sails were less than 1km across, due to improvements in the sails. Are you really telling me that -- as their primary power source-- ships in the 24th-26th centuries used photovoltaics that were less than 1% efficient? I thought that nonsense is what we were trying to get away from! It not a volume based field but mass based.
Who claimed otherwise? But if shape didn't matter, then the JumpShip would just dial it's field up to a new mass-setting, and the dropships wouldn't need KF booms. The renormalization occurs within the length of several particles.
Ah, then I misunderstood you. This is actually easier, if the Star League or the Terran Alliance can craft a device (I'd bet a chemical or crystal coating of some kind, but what do I know) that has "active" gaps smaller than that distance but still large enough for one of the particles to exert influence through. Chain reaction back through, tesselation ensures that there's enough repetition to correct for some error. If they can manufacture that absurd photochemical, this should be a piece of cake. Skiltao, vacuum energy and KF drives are a complete mismatch. To make even slightly good technobabble, they need to match. Right now it sounds like using a week old Big Mac to run a computer program instead of a computer.
Bah. This comes down to whether you're willing to add to, rather than subtract from, solar sails. |
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 5588
Fox Claw Mercs: Ripping Through Armor
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Metal armor isn't exotic either, but that doesn't excuse BattleMech armor. And everything is cheap here. You need exotic matter, and you won't find it in a solar sail. The solar sails, pre-Star League, were more than 50km across. Equivalent Star League sails were less than 1km across, due to improvements in the sails. Are you really telling me that --as their primary power source-- ships in the 24th-26th centuries used photovoltaics that were less than 1% efficient? I thought that nonsense is what we were trying to get away from! You fail to see the obvious answer. Their jump drives were less efficient and thus needed more power. Who claimed otherwise? But if shape didn't matter, then the JumpShip would just dial it's field up to a new mass-setting, and the dropships wouldn't need KF booms. I wasn't talking about mass as a fixed number but as distributed across the ship. The KF drive is a teleporter, not a geodesic fold drive. Ah, then I misunderstood you. This is actually easier, if the Star League or the Terran Alliance can craft a device (I'd bet a chemical or crystal coating of some kind, but what do I know) that has "active" gaps smaller than that distance but still large enough for one of the particles to exert influence through. Chain reaction back through, tesselation ensures that there's enough repetition to correct for some error. Wrong, you still don't understand it. Any type of particle that has been influenced by vacuum energy will be normalized, in a near instant. Bah. This comes down to whether you're willing to add to, rather than subtract from, solar sails. Really, you are misusing vacuum energy. If I were you I would have preferred exotic phased particles. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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EDIT: spelling. mostly.  You need exotic matter, and you won't find it in a solar sail.
Ah, I catch your meaning now. I may need exotic matter for it, but that doesn't mean the Star League needs exotic matter for it; alternately, the requisite exotic matter may be expensive now, but there's no reason to believe it won't get cheaper in the futuristic future. You fail to see the obvious answer. Their jump drives were less efficient and thus needed more power.
"When coupled with highly conductive energy transferral nets, these sails could transform solar energy from a system primary. The jump sail replaced the huge fusion reactor, permitting a JumpShip to "refuel" and jump further. Early jump sails were extremely inefficient, truly enormous (50 kilometers wide), and vulnerable to stress tears and impact holes. Being so cumbersome, they were also difficult to deploy and retract. For that reason there were occasions when the sail was left deployed during the jump, and emerged at the destination crumpled, melted, and sheared in many places. At least once, the entire sail was left behind at the point of departure. However, significant advances in energy absorption and improvement in structural technology resulted in considerable reduction in the size of the sail. A Star League jump sail was less than a kilometer in breadth, yet still capable of absorbing the requisite megawatt hours necessary to power a Kearny-Fuchida hyperdrive." (MW2e, 150) Even the first solar cells ever made (late 1800s? early 1900s?) managed 2-6% efficiency. I wasn't talking about mass as a fixed number but as distributed across the ship. The KF drive is a teleporter, not a geodesic fold drive.
Unless you're overly concerned with day-to-day variations in density, the fixed distribution of the drive core's mass (and any attached KF booms) should more or less conform to how the remaining mass is distributed across the ships (and the field seems to have a significant margin for error if it causes so much damage to stuff left outside the protection of the ship's stabilizing KF booms). Heck, if you're picky, the drive core can expand the field to the correct extra-dimensional frame of reference, and then the computer can adjust it to account for how the day-to-day mass is distributed. That's all I really need. Workable? Wrong, you still don't understand it. Any type of particle that has been influenced by vacuum energy will be normalized, in a near instant.
Okay, then how is the process detectable, and why can't another particle react to that newly normalizing particle? Really, you are misusing vacuum energy. If I were you I would have preferred exotic phased particles.
I'm all ears. Can it do a similar "I cover the universe in tessellations" scheme?
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 5588
Fox Claw Mercs: Ripping Through Armor
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"When coupled with highly conductive energy transferral nets, these sails could transform solar energy from a system primary. The jump sail replaced the huge fusion reactor, permitting a JumpShip to "refuel" and jump further. Early jump sails were extremely inefficient, truly enormous (50 kilometers wide), and vulnerable to stress tears and impact holes. Being so cumbersome, they were also difficult to deploy and retract. For that reason there were occasions when the sail was left deployed during the jump, and emerged at the destination crumpled, melted, and sheared in many places. At least once, the entire sail was left behind at the point of departure. However, significant advances in energy absorption and improvement in structural technology resulted in considerable reduction in the size of the sail. A Star League jump sail was less than a kilometer in breadth, yet still capable of absorbing the requisite megawatt hours necessary to power a Kearny-Fuchida hyperdrive." (MW2e, 150) It doesn't exclude advances in the jumpdrive, which could fall under structural improvements. Unless you're overly concerned with day-to-day variations in density, the fixed distribution of the drive core's mass (and any attached KF booms) should more or less conform to how the remaining mass is distributed across the ships (and the field seems to have a significant margin for error if it causes so much damage to stuff left outside the protection of the ship's stabilizing KF booms). Heck, if you're picky, the drive core can expand the field to the correct extra-dimensional frame of reference, and then the computer can adjust it to account for how the day-to-day mass is distributed. That's all I really need. Workable? Actually the margin or error is horrific, its only safe in a very small part of the affected space. Okay, then how is the process detectable, and why can't another particle react to that newly normalizing particle? Only the side-effects, such as the Casimir effect, can be detected. Another reason why vacuum energy is unworkable in BT is that its quite uniform, so any designers are better off forgetting a pseudo-sail and just have vacuum energy interact directly with the drive. Not that would work in the first place. I'm all ears. Can it do a similar "I cover the universe in tessellations" scheme? You can do several things. First you can accept an answer that fits BT and physics. Those answers mostly revolve on poor maintenance, tradition and lack of needed training. And that that fuel consumption was a typo. There done. At most you can have the sail as a solar wind collector to filter out specific isotopes, that are consumed by the jump initiator. Those isotopes which may be incredible hard to create with a fusion reactor, leading to excessive fuel consumption. But this like your idea requires a huge amount of rewriting and does't fit BT. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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I realize you don't like the idea but, prior to StratOps (which hasn't hit shelves yet), what exactly needs to be rewritten for it to work? Hell, does even StratOps get into this level of detail? There are no answers that fit both BT & physics. But my idea fits BT better than the alternatives offered here so far, and if it does break physics further than KF drives do canonically, it's not by much. It doesn't exclude advances in the jumpdrive, which could fall under structural improvements.
The passage is addressing jump sails exclusively. I could buy structural improvements to the transmission lines, though. Actually the margin or error is horrific, its only safe in a very small part of the affected space.
I agree. In fact, that small safe region appears to be a volume defined by the drive core and KF booms. Only the side-effects, such as the Casimir effect, can be detected.
Then one (or more) of those effects would be sufficient. Another reason why vacuum energy is unworkable in BT is that its quite uniform, so any designers are better off forgetting a pseudo-sail and just have vacuum energy interact directly with the drive. Not that would work in the first place.
My process requires that they do both, actually. |
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 5588
Fox Claw Mercs: Ripping Through Armor
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I realize you don't like the idea but, prior to StratOps (which hasn't hit shelves yet), what exactly needs to be rewritten for it to work? Hell, does even StratOps get into this level of detail? There are no answers that fit both BT & physics. But my idea fits BT better than the alternatives offered here so far, and if it does break physics further than KF drives do canonically, it's not by much. Well KF drives deal with unknown physics (handwavium) but they don't violate know physics. That is one of the mistakes of using a relative well known concept of vacuum energy, it just won't fit. The passage is addressing jump sails exclusively. I could buy structural improvements to the transmission lines, though. You know it just accorded to me that a lot of BT tech is worse then RL tech. This could include early photochemical sails, they might have even had to make compromises to keep it flexible, strong and working in space. Especially conducting the generated powered across the thin sail could be a problem. Then one (or more) of those effects would be sufficient. Nope, those phenomenon don't produce useful energy and renormalization can't be prevented. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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The phenomenon merely need to produce detectable energy - and the fact that these effects exist suggests that renormalization is not an obstacle to that goal. You know it just accorded to me that a lot of BT tech is worse then RL tech. This could include early photochemical sails, they might have even had to make compromises to keep it flexible, strong and working in space. Especially conducting the generated powered across the thin sail could be a problem.
I could go for that, if we used also used that principle to solve why solar sails are favored over fusion recharging. But can we do that and maintain any kind of consistency with fusion engine performance anywhere else? |
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 5588
Fox Claw Mercs: Ripping Through Armor
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The phenomenon merely need to produce detectable energy - and the fact that these effects exist suggests that renormalization is not an obstacle to that goal. Vacuum energy already expresses maximum entropy. I could go for that, if we used also used that principle to solve why solar sails are favored over fusion recharging. Actually why old sail were so bad. But can we do that and maintain any kind of consistency with fusion engine performance anywhere else? There never was such a thing. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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Actually why old sail were so bad.
Huh? The goal is to explain the justify the canon, not change it. There never was such a thing.
Hah, fair enough. |
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 5588
Fox Claw Mercs: Ripping Through Armor
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Huh? The goal is to explain the justify the canon, not change it. It doesn't actually change canon. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 8874
I reject your Star Lord and substitute my own.
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Glad you read that right, grammar just isn't my friend today... It doesn't actually change canon.
Ah, my mistake. When you said "Actually why old sail were so bad," I thought you were offering it as an explanation for "why solar sails are favored over fusion recharging." |
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Writer
Posts: 6475
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The first jump core ever did not have a jump sail.
Ergo, it is not necessary to create a K-F jump.
Additionally, if it was necessary to properly charge a K-F core, the rules would tell you that you can no longer jump after your sail has been detached, however, it is considered common practice to cut your sail and jump in emergencies.
As such, the sail is only there to provide it's puny amount of energy, and a space for advertising.
The only question to answer is:
Beyond game balance, why do you need so much fuel for your fusion reactor to charge a core, given that a sail by itself can get the job done with far less energy?
Paul
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