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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 19068
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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Figured this deserved reposting from the old forums. Okay, if we're going to make an issue of the Unseen here, it's fair enough to a) explain ourselves clearly, and b) make sure everyone knows what's seen and what's unseen. In short, there have been two waves of Unseen. The first wave involves designs which appeared in the original Battledroids game, and also in the original TRO:3025. These images had all be derived (more or less) from mecha featured in Japanese anime series such as Macross, Dougram and Crusher Joe. Due to legal action taken in the 90s, FASA (the creators of the game) agreed to drop all images of these 'Mechs from all their official publications. Some additional designs from TRO: 3055 (several of the Clan second line IICs derived from such designs) were also covered by this restriction. These are: Locust Stinger Wasp Valkyrie Phoenix Hawk Shadow Hawk Griffin Scorpion Wolverine Rifleman Ostscout / Ostroc / Ostsol Thunderbolt Crusader Warhammer Archer Marauder Goliath Battlemaster Longbow Marauder II Stinger LAM Wasp LAM Phoenix Hawk LAM Samurai ASF TRO 3055: Locust IIC Jenner IIC Griffin IIC Shadow Hawk IIC Rifleman IIC Phoenix Hawk IIC Warhammer IIC Marauder IIC (and yes, we know the Jenner IIC wasn't inspired by other sources, but when all the IICs of that era got withdrawn, it was presumably easier for FASA to pull it as well.) The second wave of Unseen come from a realisation last year that FanPro was exposed to similar potential problems, as several other of the designs in TROs 3055, and some from TRO: 3058, had been done by an outside company (Victor Musical Industries), and that FanPro didn't control those images legally. Accordingly, the original images of these designs are now also Unseen: TRO 3055: Hellhound Galahad Baboon Kraken Goshawk Viper Behemoth Vixen TRO 3058: Raijin Grand Crusader Nexus [Addition] Art developed for the Japanese version of BattleTech has been ruled as also Unseen. Now the Reseen are artistic versions of the original designs which are wholly original and controlled by FASA. The 3025 & IIC Unseens gained new life in TRO: Project Phoenix. The remaining ones have now been redrawn for TRO:3055 Upgraded, which is now released. What does all this mean? In short ... 1) You may freely put up pictures of any minis you own, be they Unseen, Reseen, plastic model kits or gnawed out of cakes of soap by trained hamsters. The more the merrier! (Btw, posting pictures of minis you don't own, without permission from their owner, is not a good thing. I only include this, as there are unscrupulous people who used to use images taken from other people's work in eBat auctions to try & fool unsuspecting buyers - that's the only reason I mention this aspect) 2) You may also put up pictures of any Reseen minis that you own or have permission for. 3) You may not post images taken from any publication which depict any of the Unseen, or the source material from which they werre drawn. So no Dougram Bigfoots or Macross Valkyries, or scans from the original TROs. This also includes any artwork which substantially includes components taken directly from such artwork. This also includes related images - eg. don't post document images of the Tequila Gunner from Dougram (6-legged Goliath anyone?), the Destroid MAC III, etc - leave well enough alone, please. 4) You may post links to web pages or illustrations which show images covered above. (One can only assume that lawyers understand the net difference. Hey, we're just looking to stay out of trouble) Hopefully, that covers the questions. Note: a) I'm happy to answer questions on "is this legit" - but as for the "why & wherefore", or "who do I shoot" ones, look for the rehashes of the subject in the General Discussions forum. b) Being CBT, there's probably going to be errata to the above - please PM me with any errors you notice, I'll retcon them in in finest TPTB style  Cheers, W. |
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Lieutenant
Posts: 1209
Initiate Plan R
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You've got the Jenner IIC listed as an Unseen. Is it this sculpt?  If so, it's a sad day. I really like the looks of it (Yes, it's a victim of Heavy Metal Surgery and is modified) |
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 19068
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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My understanding is that the Jenner IIC was one of the designs created by artists at Victor Musical Industries (VMI). As such, that'd make the Jenner IIC an Unseen like the Raijin, Grand Crusader & Nexus. The other VMI drawn 'Mechs - the original IICs - all got pulled for their connection with the original Unseens and their Robotech/Dougram connextions.
In any event, the Jenner IIC was given a new look in TRO: Project Phoenix, so that's the official sculpt now. Nothing wrong with using the original in your games, and quite alright to post mini pics of them here.
W.
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Sergeant
Posts: 188
1507th RCT, FOR HANSE!
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Yeah, that version of the Jenner IIC is the banned one. I have one in my collection somewhere. I'll have to dig it out. I think it's still in the blister.  Hey, where are the LAMs on that list? |
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 19068
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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Doh!  "Hey, Hellbie! Warm up the retcon beam again, thanks!" W |
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Master Sergeant
Posts: 289
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Hey. You forgot about the Vee.The GAL-100 Galleon Light Tank is a unseen.I hope this help. 
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CamoSpecs
Posts: 158
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The Galleon is a strange animal, it keeps appearing in new publications despite the Crusher Joe knockoff. I know the miniature is OOP by a long shot, but TROs 3058 and 3058:U both have the Galleon present. It wasn't a Project Phoenix unit either. Perhaps the miniature is unseen, but the artwork that keeps being used isn't?
Ryan
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Captain
Posts: 2451
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The Galleon is a strange animal, it keeps appearing in new publications despite the Crusher Joe knockoff. I know the miniature is OOP by a long shot, but TROs 3058 and 3058:U both have the Galleon present. It wasn't a Project Phoenix unit either. Perhaps the miniature is unseen, but the artwork that keeps being used isn't? the original mini and artwork is (or should be) Unseen but the 3058 image is basically a pre-Project Phoenix makeover like most of the other vehicles in the book. WizKids uses the same image in the MW era so it's got to be good to go. |
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Major
Posts: 3495
Stepin' on Blakists near you
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Hey, where are the LAMs on that list? they are being re-done from what i under stand. please someone correct me if i am wrong. they either are....... A) going to resculpt them based off of current ASF and just add legs and arms to them B) use our modern fighters F-16, F-15, for examples and make them LAMS but they have to be careful that Sunshine Productions don't gettem. C) or just start from scratch |
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Major
Posts: 3495
Stepin' on Blakists near you
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what page in TRO Projest Phoenix is the Jenner IIC on? it isn't in here. is there an updated version of ot of is the Jenner IIC in the TRO3055 updates book?
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Recruit
Posts: 16
Now, I could have sworn I came here for something
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what page in TRO Projest Phoenix is the Jenner IIC on? it isn't in here. is there an updated version of ot of is the Jenner IIC in the TRO3055 updates book?
The Jenner IIC is on page 108 of TRO 3055 upgrade. |
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Major
Posts: 5822
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Just curious but where did the Scorpion image come from that got it tagged as Unseen ?
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 10042
---------BACON--------
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Just curious but where did the Scorpion image come from that got it tagged as Unseen ?
I believe it is a Dougram machine. |
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Captain
Posts: 2451
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Just curious but where did the Scorpion image come from that got it tagged as Unseen ?
http://brianscache.com/unseen/ |
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Major
Posts: 5822
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Thanks for the info and link, never knew about that one : )
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Recruit
Posts: 6
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So,
Are there any list of OOP Minis? BattleMech, vehicles, etc...
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 19068
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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Top of this thread lists those OOP due to legal issues.
W.
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 884
AS7-D: Un-pimping your ride since 2761
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So,
Are there any list of OOP Minis? BattleMech, vehicles, etc...
Chad "Urbanmech" Derrenbacker once had a site that gave a lot of useful information. Unfortunately the site seems to be gone...( but it was www.urbanmech.com ) Urbie himself seems to have fallen off the face of Terra... |
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Colonel
Posts: 13800
Comstar Explorer Service - Lost in Spaaaace!!!!
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So, wait, if the Jenner IIC image/mini from the original TR3055 is Unseen, how is IWM able to sell both the old and the PP mini for it? Which image is in TR3055U?
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 19068
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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Is IWM still selling the Unseen version? If so, then perhaps because this was a voluntary pull, they might be able to sell off existing stock on hand under some legal ruling akin to that which allows us to carry links to pictures of original Macross art, but not showing the art directly. Meddle not with the affairs of lawyers, because you are crunchy, and go well with ketchup And the Jenner IIC didn't appear in 3055U, because it had already appeared in PP. W. |
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Colonel
Posts: 24602
Master of the Etheric Sea
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Worktroll, you're incorrect. The Jenner IIC *is* in TR3055U, and was *not* in Project Phoenix.
Giovannyi, the image from TR3055 Upgrade is the "Phoenixed" Jenner IIC (pp. 108-109).
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Captain
Posts: 2451
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So, wait, if the Jenner IIC image/mini from the original TR3055 is Unseen, how is IWM able to sell both the old and the PP mini for it? i don't think i've ever seen a straight answer for the original Jenner IIC. the artwork was created out of house but it is based heavily on an image created in house (the Jenner). my guess is that it was "Phoenixed" in TRO:3055 Upgrade because every other 'Mech in that section was. i never really dug deep looking for answers though... i didn't want to draw attention to it lest someone decide it needed to be pulled. |
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Sergeant
Posts: 191
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I recently bought a load of second hand mechs.
Most are lead. And most are on those lists.
Is it possible I have some of these Unseen?
I unfortunately don't have a digi cam, but my brother does I'll nag him into letting me use it.
Would you lot be able to tell if they were?
BTW They don't look as old as the one in the above photo
Cheers
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Insert clever title in this space
Moderator
Posts: 27371
I see Ninja Turtles!!!
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I recently bought a load of second hand mechs.
Most are lead. And most are on those lists.
Is it possible I have some of these Unseen?
I unfortunately don't have a digi cam, but my brother does I'll nag him into letting me use it.
Would you lot be able to tell if they were?
BTW They don't look as old as the one in the above photo
Cheers
One thing you'll learn real fast around here- if you post a pic of a Mech and say 'what is this?', someone WILL know the answer very quickly. ;)d |
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Sergeant
Posts: 191
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I saw a note on another post that warned of putting stuff up about the unseen - prob to do with legal rights. But is ok to put photographs of the mechs up?
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Colonel
Posts: 24602
Master of the Etheric Sea
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As noted, you can post pictures of the miniatures, just not the artwork they're based on.
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 19068
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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I saw a note on another post that warned of putting stuff up about the unseen - prob to do with legal rights. But is ok to put photographs of the mechs up?
As the good Colonel says, photos of any minis or toys you own are 100% fine. It's the artwork - either from the original animes, or from earlier CBT books - which we can't show. You can put up a link to such images, but can't show the images directly here. W. |
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Sergeant
Posts: 191
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Hello!
Under the title of new player in the general discussion I have posted a load of links at bottom of third page. These links will take you to pictures of my mechs.
I would appreciate everyones opinions. Especially in the ID lineup.
Cheers
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Major
Posts: 5620
For the Greater Glory of Clan Chaddock
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As the good Colonel says, photos of any minis or toys you own are 100% fine. It's the artwork - either from the original animes, or from earlier CBT books - which we can't show. You can put up a link to such images, but can't show the images directly here.
W.
that reminds me... the rights that FASA did actually have were for repackaging the Macross Models as BattleTech Models is that why the minis are permissable? |
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 19068
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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There's a two-part answer:
a) FASA thought it had the rights; it turns out the company they were dealing with didn't have the right to pass on the rights, as it were. This didn't help their eventual permission.
b) You can post your own minis because you paid for them & own them. The original artwork though is intellectual property of the creator, or some company who has assumed the rights, and you (and I) don't own that. It's the same situation if you put up pictures of the Morris Minor you owned and put it up for sale - that's fine. But using artwork paid for & owned by the Morris Motors company to advertise your car misrepresents the ownership of the art & the IP, and the lawyers start circling.
CHeers,
W.
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Colonel
Posts: 24602
Master of the Etheric Sea
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Interestingly, I used to tele-intern for the company that sold the bogus rights to FASA. For a while, they were very responsive to their fans and were making a killing in the toy market. Then they got awful again.
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Major
Posts: 5620
For the Greater Glory of Clan Chaddock
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There's a two-part answer:
a) FASA thought it had the rights; it turns out the company they were dealing with didn't have the right to pass on the rights, as it were. This didn't help their eventual permission. corporate law is quite tangled.. yes? |
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