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Major
Posts: 3517
Solidarity, Brother
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I posted this link in a brush thread but thought I'd reiterate here a bit of encouragement and some lessons I've learned. Talent is not needed for getting good at art. If you ask nearly any CSO artist except for Pendragon (cause he's always perfect  ), they'll probably tell you that their first minis stunk to high heaven compared to what they're doing today. I'm a perfectionist so I'm constantly stripping minis and repainting till I get that perfect highlight for my perfect unit that I'll never have. But that's my problem. What is happening is that with all this practice, I'm getting better at it. I'm no Thomas Cole, nor will I likely ever be, but just like that hermaphrodite from Monty Python: "I'm getting better". That's the key lesson Howard Tayler keeps trying to get across. It takes a lot of hard work and practice to get better at something. A second personal example would be me, math, and engineering. I'm an English grad. Didn't do all really really well, but I hung in there and learned a lot. Now I'm into my 30s, haven't gotten a career going, and I'm into my 3rd degree. Why? Well partly because I lost (and might get back soon) my second career and degree, but that's irrelevant. It's mostly because some people finally bonked me on the head and convinced me that I could actually get better at math. Am I brilliant? Heck no. But I'm getting better. I'm also interested and curious enough about this "engineeringk and maths" thing to persevere. And I'm kind of liking it as I get better. Now I still like flying better (second degree yet-to-be-finished) but this is getting to be fun. Who'da thunk from a dumb ol English major? I have a pet theory and some psychologist/sociologist folks can back it up if its true. Talent isn't about the capability to do something. It's the ability to get better at something faster. As you'll see in Howard's lecture, the steepness of the learning line increases with the more natural ability you have. But it doesn't stop you from getting as good as that guy who learned real fast. It just takes you longer to get to that level. So... No more burying face in hands at the incredible mastery of Mr. CSO person. And I especially don't want to hear anymore "I'll never be as good as you" BS. More painting, more critiques, more stretching yourself to get better. Bumble and mess-up your way to getting better and enjoy yourself along the way. Do we have a deal? |
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Warrant Officer
Posts: 538
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I have an Atlas in my collection... He is painted black, with grey accents, silver on the heat sinks and red eyes. No highlights, no washes, no hex base. The ground effects consist of; the joining piece between the legs being painted brown (mud), with little green patches (grass). It's old, dusty, chipped, and overall a horrible job of paint. It will also never be repainted.
This was the first 'Mech I ever painted, and is a constant reminder of how far I have come in painting.
My collection is this hodge-podge of painted 'Mechs, that demonstrate the evolution of my painting style. They represent things that I saw, and either incorporated into my overall style, or moved on. What this means, is that four 'Mechs in the same lance, might be painted in the same colors, but they don't really look alike.
I also remember looking at the old color Ral Partha sheet with the painted 'Mech on it (you know the one. A lot of them were khaki, or khaki and grey, a couple were grey). I used to look at it, and wish I could paint like that. Now, that would be a step backwards.
I know a guy that refuses to start painting, because he is afraid of being bad at it. I've told him time and again "that's what stripper is for", but he still refuses to even start. To me, that's like waiting for the ultimate computer to come out.. It will never happen. Ask the guys at CSO. The paint jobs that were cutting edge back five years again, wouldn't be accepted today. Because not only no we get better, so do the techniques. You can spend years mastering the techniques that are out now, only to look up and find that they have changed, or gotten better.
It is frustrating when you look at the 'Mechs you worked hard on, and realize that they don't look as good as your new ones. I almost started a thread with "When will Good, be good enough", because I hated that the 'Mechs weren't painted in the same style. But then I realized that when that stops, I've quit caring, and quit wanting to learn.... When that stops, I've quit painting.
Caz
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Corporal
Posts: 92
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You get a big AMEN from me brothers!
While I consider myself an accomplished painter now, I wasn't to great when I started, and I never took an art class after 6th grade. It took some actual painting and learning on my part to make things gel. While an artistic bent may help. anyone can produce nice paint jobs with a bit of practice and learning the basic techniques.
Those who read this and are afraid to paint because you think you have no talent for it, pick up a brush and try. You may find the act relaxing, or even satisfying. In the very least if you make the effort to learn and practice, after a few minis you can look back at the very first one then the most recent and see that you got better and be proud of what you've accomplished.
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General Counsel, Ngo Industries
Moderator
Posts: 7362
"St. Deathrider, torturer of souls" - Roese
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I have some horrible paintjobs on minis but they have one thing on my later stuff. They show where I started. I have some other minis painted by a CSO artist who I will not mention to protect the innocent That give me something to study and work to surpass. Practice makes perfect I can assure you. Bedwyr you said it best in the topic's title. |
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Lieutenant
Posts: 1215
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I needed sleep and for some reason got on the forum to putter about for a bit, thats when I found the other thread that Bdwyr was talking about in regard to the link. I watched the whole thing and its true. I say that from both sides of the coin, as the person that people would say "your really talented" and got lazy about things as well as "damn, you suck" but kept trying because I wanted to get better(which negates the negative comment).
Years ago when a friend and I got into the BT CCG we both had the same amount of cards and for the most part we had nothing people would consider great. He might have a had a few cards that were better but they were balanced by cost and such. When we played it was 50/50 when it came to who would win. That made it fun because for me it gave me a reason to push myself to get better. Then I read a bit of an article about the players in tournaments and how they were winning. Well I had zero of the cards they had(all rares) but some small concept was perceived and I adopted it. The difference helped just a bit but the idea that there was even more to get out of the game just lit a fire in my mind and I started to look at the ccg completely different! From that point on the games between my friend and I went from 50/50 to 40/60 and probably beyond 25/75. Strangely enough my friend had a part time job and was buying packs of cards without telling me and I started to see a lot of good cards being thrown at me but they were ultimately ineffective(we used to go to the shop at the same time and by an agreed upon number of boosters each).
Ultimately he joined the AirForce and gave me all of his cards and after some time I looked through them. Once I did that I realized the difference in the "quality" of the cards he had when compared to mine and it stunned me that I still won so often. The difference between us was that he took the approach of "getting better" as going out and buying more boosters to get more cards in hopes of getting rare cards. My approach to getting better was to look at what I had and looking for ways to make them work even more effective. He spent 15 minutes in a shop buying the cards while I spent countless hours going through my cards and thinking up of combinations of cards that work and then revising them to stay within certain limitations.
A few years later he was on leave and we were hanging out and was using decks of cards I had put together and at that point the games were back to 50/50. He laughed his butt off because he was winning and was beating me with my own decks of cards. Before we would start a game he would look through the deck he had picked out and after 5 minutes on his 10th pass through the cards I could see him nodding his head and saying things like "yeah, I see" and other comments indicating that he was mentally connecting X card to Y card that triggered the usage of Z card for effect 1 and a completely different set of cards such as B with C and Z that triggered effect 2. He was able to explain all of the things that I had spent hours working on after the game. During the game he used the cards in the combinations I had set into it. So as a player we were 50/50 when using decks that were created with an equal level of skill. Ultimately the difference in how decks were created was the determining factor in our older games but the skills used in a game were equal.
One of the MMO games I have played was Planetside and when I started I had people saying "you suck"and honestly I did. I did because the computer I was using left me with 10 frames per second in an FPS game. once I got a new computer I was doing a lot better and people were noticing the difference. So the "wow you must have really expensive paint!" was not completely addressed in the video but it might have added to much and gone off track. In short the better gear allowed me to make better use of what skill I had built up while the lower end computer limited my skill level. When it comes to paints if you were working with really runny, low pigment quality paints then you would have have a problem and when you got ahold of a better set of paints the difference would be noticeable. The paint won't make you pro and neither does getting a better computer in a game. What it does is removes the restraints that the lower end stuff capped your skills at. Not to say thats a bad thing because it forces you to rethink things much like those kids that were researching questions on a test!
In that MMO(its a first person shooter, not a wow/eq type game) I ran into a bunch of cool people who had far fewer kills then myself but equal computers. Basically they avoided certain things because they said they sucked and they couldn't beat anyone else so they just looked for something else to do. Well eventually we got around to having training nights where it was just us and practicing. Some thought it was stupid while others didn't understand how they were going to get better becuase they sucked! Well, those that stuck with it kept trying and getting beat down, criticized and given points on what they were doing wrong. Honestly I wondered if i was being mean and just ego trippin but I wanted to be honest with them because thats the only way I thought its possible to get better at things. Eventually things started to click for them and we noticed that most of them had improved. Others that tried harder improved even more and they started looking to find those situations they used to back away from. Others, well a few of us thought they were completely different players because of the massive difference!
The funny thing is they kept getting better because they got a taste of what its like to win far more often then they lost. Even the guy that would complain that he had a problem moving the mouse a certain direction because of some kind of problem got better. Honestly they were nubby and I say that with pride because that bunch means a lot and I was really happy to see them making progress. I know that I got better because I forced myself to do better, I heard what the "good" players were getting in kills per hour and I set my goals to slowly match theirs over time and i forced myself to work for it. The guys complained they sucked and would never get better and I was determined to prove them wrong and eventually they took over and wanted to prove how good they were and the end results were better then either of us would have expected. Some of them didnt want to try and said i was better because I was simply , automatically better at these kinds of games(suggesting talent for it) and used that as their excuse to not try. Most did try and proved themselves wrong.
I think the guy in the vid is taking the right approach as he is saying if you practice you can get better, instead of "if you believe!". I also like how he points to the 10 years of practice before someone becomes good at something. It makes sense that you need to put a lot of work into it.As for 10 years being a hard rule, I have no idea but what it suggests is right regardless.
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CamoSpecs
Posts: 8245
I'm looking at YOU, Marconi!
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Well, you're right... to a degree. I for one know that I have exactly no musical talent, and never will. Why? Because I'm tone deaf. Tell me that note is a C or an E, I can't tell the difference. I can appreciate good music, but I have no clue what they're playing in. It sucks, especially since I had to find this out during my teens while failing to learn to play guitar. Getting uninvited to jam sessions because you can't tell what key everyone else is playing in and ruin both the sound and the vibe is very disheartening. So I dropped music as a hobby and got into killing things, err wargaming, instead.
For painting, it's more than natural talent, or even persistence. It's dedication and a willingness to invest in the hobby. If you're wondering why you can't get good results as you paint you freshly opened, unwashed, unprimed mini with a single, dirty beginner's brush, you need to reevaluate your dedication. Painting is about more than having paint and a subject, you need to have the infrastructure in place to create that great work of art instead of neo-Picasso garbage.
You need to know that minis are small, sometimes ridiculously so, and you can't always see what you're working on very clearly. The first thing you need to invest in is some kind of magnifying lamp, easily found at most office supply stores for around $50. Now you can save your eyesight by not squinting in the dark at something so small.
You need to know that a mini can't just be opened and slapped with a coat of paint. There are mold release agents and bits of pewter dust all over that thing, and they need to be cleaned off before you can do anything. You have to be willing to use soapy water and an old toothbrush on your mini. Then you have to be willing to let it dry completely before proceeding.
You need to know that there is no such thing as a perfect mold, and most of the time there's no such thing as a good mold. Your mini will have mold lines that need to be removed. You will have to invest in a micro file set to do this properly, otherwise those mold lines will ruin your mini. You have to spend time filing them away, and not inhaling the dust this makes, so a cheap dust mask should be nearby. You may want to do this before the cleaning part.
You need to know that most minis have joints that are stupidly fragile and will not hold together even with super glue. You'll need to invest in a pin vise and set of jeweler's bits, and some thin brass rods for pinning. You'll have to pin those weak joints, especially if you want that mini to stand up to actual game play. The drilling and pinning process is very tedious and difficult, and you will break a few bits along the way.
You need to know that paint does not automatically stick to anything, and needs to have a bonding agent to adhere to. You will need to invest in some kind of primer for your minis before you paint. Spray your filed, cleaned and thoroughly dried minis with primer, and allow it to dry completely before you think about painting them.
You need to know that not all brands of paint are equal. Many brands are made specifically for painting miniatures. They are thinner and often heavier in pigment than standard craft store crap, which is categorically unfit for painting minis. You'll need to invest in some quality paints, and in many shades. This will be monstrously expensive, and is the part where the average person's dedication fails.
You need to know that not all brushes are created equal, either. The bristles of synthetic brushes are often too huge and stiff for miniatures, and should only be used for, well, nothing. Brushes are even more disgustingly expensive than paint, and you'll need several different sizes and shapes. Then you'll need to take care of them, so you'll need brush cleaners, too.
Once you've managed all these major details, plus the minor ones too numerous to list, than you'll be in good shape. Study tutorials where you can, ask advice from the "masters", who should be willing to give any that they can or they can stuff it, and above all practice. Find what methods work for you and try them. Experiment with different techniques and styles. Show off your work and ask for constructive feedback, and don't throw a hissy fit when you get it!
A good majority of the secret to great painting is practice, but a lot of it is your dedication and willingness to invest in the hobby. And, unless you're color blind, don't give up. I learned a lot from a color blind artist when i was first starting out, so don't even give up then.
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Lieutenant
Posts: 910
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Nice summarization Jal, and a good addition to Bedwyr's thread. It takes what he has and what you write. Anybody wanting to start painting needs to read this. Now everybody get back to painting.  |
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Major
Posts: 3517
Solidarity, Brother
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Yes. It is all true. I would say that gaining those tidbits of knowledge Jal points to are all part of the learning, practicing process.
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Champion of the Pack
Moderator
Posts: 4429
Wile E. Coyote
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I think trying to grow as an artist will lead the best "results." You might never be a Picasso, but if you activily seek out someone who's doing something you like and try to learn how to do it, you'll gain a new tool in your tool box (the technique, ability, skill, whatever) and advanced you knowledge and abilities. Pushing yourself is how you evolve and grow in anything. When you become complacent and stagnate, thats when you don't advance or just waller in a false self-confidence. I don't have it all figured out, though I'm hoping I'm finally coming out of a 3-4 year wallering stage  |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 11005
Hunting for Adder skins
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My own experiences:
I do not like spray primers..they just do not work well when where you live, the only well ventilated
place is outside. Instead, I have found through trial and error that Privateer Presses Greatcoat Grey
actually makes a decent primer: thin enough that it does not lose detail..
Brushes, you go through like crazy. But, always make sure you have a brush for drybrushing, and
a brush for base-coating/priming...never use these brushes for anything else.
My rules of painting:
1) Learn something new everytime. Sitting on your laurels is how your work gets stagnant.
Experiment, try different things out..if you screw up? Well...that is what Bix is for!
2) Never be afraid to ask someone how they did something. Worst they can do is not tell you.
Average they can do is tell you what they did. Best they can tell you is WHY they did what
they did.
3) Paint different schemes. I do not care if you are a die-hard Lyran Regulars, Free Worlds Legionaire,
or Jade Falcon Guards, painting ONLY the same scheme miniature after miniature is a sure way
to burn out on painting.
4) Paint different unit types. Seriously, painting 'Mechs all the time is boring, but you also use different
techniques painting battle armour and tanks and aerospace then you use on just 'Mechs.
5) Have fun!
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Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 3347
Justin and Natasha looking for WoB's
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as others have said the longer you work at this hobby the better you will get. the one thing that most forget to do is take your time. if you rush your work it will show. this is for both the building and painting of you mini.
on the paint and brush end, build it up slowly. if you jump in to hard you will lay out a lot of money. start slow and work with a few colors and brush types then move up.
the other thing is do you like your work? if you like then you have the main problem licked. people that do not like the work they do will stop because they feel they can not do a good job. ask others about your work and the good ones will point out were you can do better. if you see someone doing something you think is cool ask them how they did it. once more the good ones will share how it was done. also do not fear trying new things.
I tell my lady Devondra all the time when she ask what I think of her work .... do you like it. I ask her because if she does not like it no matter what I tell her she is going to think her work is not good. if she tells me she likes what she has done then I will offer points I think will make her work better. I also ask her what she thinks of what I have done for her point of view, but only on work I like to start with .... why? well if I do not like it why ask some if they like it or for way to make it better if I plan re-paint it.
like most things in life the more you work at it the better you will get and your work will show that you have worked at it.
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Private
Posts: 25
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This is all some great, and encouraging, advice. I'm very critical of my own work, just have to keep from putting myself down and allow myself to enjoy my work.  |
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Contaminater of Odessa
Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 1377
Behold, Teh Battle Pope!
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This thread relevant to my interests and actually makes me feel better about myself
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Major
Posts: 3517
Solidarity, Brother
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That was the point. In fact Sounguru, another CSO guy, is fond of saying he couldn't paint the broad side of a barn door when he started.
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Contaminater of Odessa
Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 1377
Behold, Teh Battle Pope!
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That was the point. In fact Sounguru, another CSO guy, is fond of saying he couldn't paint the broad side of a barn door when he started.
Ask anyone who knows me for longer than three weeks...I'm great at beating myself up |
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Contaminater of Odessa
Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 1377
Behold, Teh Battle Pope!
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*casts raise dead on thread* I'm sorry for the thread necromancy, however this is one I feel is worth it. To quote Jal from earlier You need to know that minis are small, sometimes ridiculously so, and you can't always see what you're working on very clearly. The first thing you need to invest in is some kind of magnifying lamp, easily found at most office supply stores for around $50. Now you can save your eyesight by not squinting in the dark at something so small. This is dead on accurate. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 11005
Hunting for Adder skins
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I had been working so hard to get my miniatures painting to a point like many I see on
Camospecs and on here. When I was at Gencon, I got a chance to talk with the Camospecs
guys, and found out that there were simple techniques that I had never thought about.
I showed off a few of the pieces I brough twith me to Darrian Wolfe, and got complimented
on the flame paint job I did on my Hell's Horses Iota Galaxy Executioner. And, finally, I learned
about the fine pens for doing the spaces between panels, again, something I had never thought
of. Over the last few months, my painting has leaped up in quality, to the point where I actually
look at my stuff pre-GenCon 2009, and wonder how I thought that was "good enough."
This is just in a few months. I am still experimenting with the technique I got directed to, but,
that is the big thing: I learned something new, something I had not thought of before, and it
changed everything. Never stop learning, never let yourself stagnate.
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Captain
Posts: 2952
Legio Patria Nosta
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Okay, ive been painting minis for about ten years now (i know, im still young compared to alot around here) and ive gotten progressivly better, ive worked my way up from the GW Paint Marine mines;
had a badly painted blood angels army
then i had a better painted blood angels army
then i found a few techniques that made my imperial guardsmen look if not decent, Graphic and god in a group on a table
then i painted some orks in a huge batch, they look crud, but not because of the old reasons things i paint look crud (learnings)
then i painted a large number of battletech minis and they were below average.
and now i have a whole bunch of spacehulk terminators that i think look pretty sweet.
now Ive practiced like anything, and about a year ago, my housemate discovered that she likes warmachine. She instantly starts painting above average miniatures. She then moves onto Warhammer Fantasy, and paints brilliant stuff. Every time she learns an actual technique, she brings it out and kicks everyone's asses with it. Im ashamed to say that ive asked her to paint some of my minis and when i put them next to mine they blow my stuff out of the water. She painted half of my Battletech intro Box models, as those steiner dudes with the celtic knotwork on them. She is currently painting me a mad cat mk2 in GB colours.
Now yes, alot of this is time, patience and technique. But there is such a thing as pure talent. And ive had my butt kicked. It is very demoralising.
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Contaminater of Odessa
Catalyst Demo Team
Posts: 1377
Behold, Teh Battle Pope!
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*Wall of text removed for sanity purposes *
Now yes, alot of this is time, patience and technique. But there is such a thing as pure talent. And ive had my butt kicked. It is very demoralising.
I know how you feel. In my area I have a retired Camospec artist and several other high quality painters, including Darrian Wolfe and Phlop who just simply blow me out of the water, and yeah, it can be quite demoralizing to see some of their work. I have a few minis I think have come out quite well and are in my tray labelled "Woe become those who damage this" While others may be doing work that blow them out of the water, I know these are mine and have my blood sweat and tears in them. Some take forever to be done, and others go quickly..but they're mine. It helps when I think of them that way |
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