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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 10983
Hunting for Adder skins
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You thought wrong.  I remember a couple years ago, a guy got in trouble for linking off site to re-imagings he did that were using the whole thing about 13 points of disimilarity/ |
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M.U.L. Team
BT Volunteer
Posts: 26305
Errata Monkey
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I remember a couple years ago, a guy got in trouble for linking off site to re-imagings he did that were using the whole thing about 13 points of disimilarity/
That wasn't the reason, but we won't get into that barrel of muck again. Suffice it to say that it was a different rule that was being broken. |
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 10983
Hunting for Adder skins
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That wasn't the reason, but we won't get into that barrel of muck again. Suffice it to say that it was a different rule that was being broken.
Ah..OK..what I had seen at the time was comments about those being unseen, not allowed, yadda-yadda. So I had always thought that was what the issue was. |
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Captain
Posts: 2775
♀ Regulus ♀
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corporate law is quite tangled.. yes?
Incredibly! For some reason I thought the Flea was Unseen as well, I guess not |
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Master Sergeant
Posts: 312
Is this what is left of the mighty Decepticons?
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I know the orignial Longbow is unseen where did that come from? Because i have All of the original TRs and it is not in any of them. Or do i have pages that have fallen out? I also have a 2ed box set with the book that had the starter mechs.
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 20560
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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The "Longbow that is a Robotech Spartan" is, IIRC, from one of the early scenario books - possibly MacCarron's Armoured Cavalry?
W.
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M.U.L. Team
BT Volunteer
Posts: 26305
Errata Monkey
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The "Longbow that is a Robotech Spartan" is, IIRC, from one of the early scenario books - possibly MacCarron's Armoured Cavalry?
Sorenson's Sabres. It was only pictured, in canon, in the Star League Sourcebook, and the link was made in BattleTechnology, IIRC. |
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 20560
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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And that from someone who was watching "Sesame St" when the Sabres book came out ... I have the scenario book, and I couldn't remember correctly. Someone pass me my ferro-fibrous walking frame, and help me get my stealth cardigan on ...  W |
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Master Sergeant
Posts: 312
Is this what is left of the mighty Decepticons?
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Thanks much for the help found it in my pdf collection.
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Private
Posts: 42
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What exactly is the scoop with the original Battledroids. Of course some were removed as unseen and then returned as the reseen (e.g. locust, griffin, rifleman, battlemaster). That makes complete sense to me (which is scary in and of itself.) However other Battledroids (not unseen - at least according to the list at the beginning of the thread) have also been redone. Some have similar appearances and their stats are the same (e.g. battleaxe, falcon), while others have changed drastically (e.g. vulcan, hornet) in terms of appearance. And why wasn't the flea changed at all?
Were the non-unseen battlemechs non-canon? If so, why, when they became canon, did they not stay consistent with the old Battledroid miniatures? Did those belong to Ral Partha/IWM or someone else? And why are some designs virtually the same as the Battletechnology designs (e.g. battleaxe, falcon) while others are completely different (e.g. gladiator)?
While I think it is great that the Battledroids are finally getting some loving, what is the use if the image AND the stats are so different? Just the name and weight are the same. Perhaps it's like the Steven Wright joke! - This is George Washington's axe that he used to chop down the cherry tree. The blade and handle have been replaced several times, but it occupies the same space!
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 20560
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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Okay, my take. Initially, the Battedroids were created as "ripoffs" of the Robotech/Macross mecha. Within reason, there are a number of similarities - BD Cestus = Crusader/Armoured Valkyrie, BD Longbow = Longbow  /Spartan, Bombadier = Archer/Gladiator, BD Battleaxe = Warhammer/Excalibur, Firebee = Phoenix Hawk/Super Valkyrie, and so on, IIRC the Macross names. The names were all at that time pulled out of someone's ... initiative Later, Ral Partha made some sort of a deal with Twentieth Century Imports, the guys behind iimporting the plastic model kits. The 'recognisable' Battledroids - Battlemaster, Wolverine, Wasp - are really a totally separate 'generation', produced later in time than the 'original' Battledroids. The 'Gen 1' Battledroids disappeared from production - probably a wise business move, given their 'proxy' nature. Somewhere in the middle of the previous two steps, BattleTechnology magazine came out, and featured a few of the 'Gen 1' BattleDroids published in the magazine with art. But not all. BattleAxe, Flea, Gladiator spring to mind. Some time after that, possibly around the time George Lucas forced the name change to BattleTech, Ral partha resculpted some of the 'Gen 2' BattleDroid minis, while expanding the product line considerably, a trend which continues to this day. Looking at the 'Gen 1' sculpts, I reckon the later Unseens were in most regards far better sculpts. The 'Gen 2' BattleDroids certainly deserve collector's attention, but for rarity not beauty IMHO In parallel with this, FASA allowed BT mag to 'showcase' some of FASA's new designs - Banshee 3S, Wolfhound spring to mind. Because those began life in FASA, they stayed canon. Then ... kick in the Unseen legal problems, then FanPro taking over. One solid determination: "use nothing not made in-house". The second wave of Unseen took out all the VMI designs, and those done out-house for the ComStar sourcebook. Catalyst in their turn would never touch the original art of things like the Gladiator, Battleaxe, etc. But they've done as much as they can - they've brought the names and associations back in, even if the stats and fluff of the original incarnations can't be used as-is. Why did the Flea survive all this? Probably because it was demonstrably not based on any mecha shown in Dougram or Macross/Robotech. I find it ironic, because I always felt it was suprisingly similar to Star Wars' AT-ST. The Galleon vehicle also seems to have survived relatively unchanged, although it has been slightly Reseened lately. Short answer: beware interfering in the affairs of copyright lawyers, because they are not child-safe nor user-friendly. W. |
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Master Sergeant
Posts: 250
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Worktroll, Thank you for the most clearly explained history of the various unseen I have ever read!
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Private
Posts: 42
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Catalyst in their turn would never touch the original art of things like the Gladiator, Battleaxe, etc. But they've done as much as they can - they've brought the names and associations back in, even if the stats and fluff of the original incarnations can't be used as-is.
I see what you are saying, but I don't think that your explanation necessarily fits in all cases. For example, consider the Battleaxe that was canonized in TRO3075. While it has different fluff, it has nearly the same stats as the Battletechnology version. And though modified, it still looks similar to the original Battledroid sculpt. Similarly the newer Falcon looks very similar to the old (admittedly out of scale) Falcon Battledroid. Again, the stats were also very similar, if not identical, to what was published in Battletechnology. Contrast that with the Gladiator, which was also canonized in TR03075. The new Gladiator looks markedly different from its Battedroid predecessor, and it design, with the exception of it's weight, is totally different. The old Gladiator was a missile boat - a sort of beefed up Whitworth, while the new Gladiator doesn't even have missiles. And what of the Vulcan. The newer 'Mech seems to have little or nothing to do with the Vulcan Battledroid. In fact the new Hammerhands (sans SRM-6) seems much more like the old Vulcan. I guess I'm not convinced that they couldn't have done a better job with some of these Battledroids, and treated them in the same way they treated the Battleaxe and Falcon. Why did the Flea survive all this? Probably because it was demonstrably not based on any mecha shown in Dougram or Macross/Robotech. I find it ironic, because I always felt it was suprisingly similar to Star Wars' AT-ST. The Galleon vehicle also seems to have survived relatively unchanged, although it has been slightly Reseened lately. I totally agree with you on both points regarding the Flea. The Flea was definitely both dissimilar to any Japanese design, but remarkably similar to the Star Wars walker. However, I do think that some of the other Battledroids were equally dissimilar to any Japanese designs. Take the Vulcan or Gladiator for example. I've never seen anything that looked like those two "Mechs. Short answer: beware interfering in the affairs of copyright lawyers, because they are not child-safe nor user-friendly.
W.
I can't disagree with that statement! |
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 20560
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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I see what you are saying, but I don't think that your explanation necessarily fits in all cases. For example, consider the Battleaxe that was canonized in TRO3075. While it has different fluff, it has nearly the same stats as the Battletechnology version. And though modified, it still looks similar to the original Battledroid sculpt. Similarly the newer Falcon looks very similar to the old (admittedly out of scale) Falcon Battledroid. Again, the stats were also very similar, if not identical, to what was published in Battletechnology.
And some of the Reseen - Battlemaster, Griffin - have greater similarity to the Unseen than others - Archer, Marauder. I suppose it all comes down to artistic interpretation, which is a personal thing. I might go as far as to hazard a guess that the Battleaxe has, for some reason, much greater 'visibility' than the Gladiator - eg. much more esily recognised. Why? Dunno ... they're both sub-optimal designs, but the Battleaxe is over-armed and under-armoured, while the Gladiator is under-armed. Just throwing a wild-ass guess out there? W. |
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Master Sergeant
Posts: 220
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Interesting that I wasn't the only one to notice the similarity between the Flea and the AT-ST. Many moons ago, when I got the original 3050 TRO, I happened to have some Star Wars Micro Machines lying nearby while I was paging through it, and made that connection. That AT-ST MM immediately got a repaint and a commission into the ranks as a bootstrapped Flea.
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 7221
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Some of the vehicles also made it into Record Sheets Volume Six: Vehicles. The Jeep and Skimmer to name a couple.
The Jeep and the Skimmer originally appeared in Mechwarrior (RPG) 1st edition, so they predate Solaris by quite a margin. And to this day, I'm still amazed that FASA let the Leopard, Corsair, and Galleon slip through, and dropped the other non-Macross designs that were just as iconic. And what is even more amazing is that Fanpro/Catalyst Game Labs didn't "phoenix" these designs later on, since they are based on art not developed in-house. I remember bringing this up some time back. But it still doesn't make since, considering the deal with the Project Phoenix Longbow.
I'm still stunned by the Corsair and the Galleon; I can't honestly see any difference worth mentioning between the originals and CBT's. The Leopard, OTOH, is a different case; the only thing that was copied from the Minerva was the profile of the forward section (which is a dead ringer), but when FASA "showed the rest of the ship" it was absolutely clear they were completely different. FASA was smart; they even made the Leopard CV, which was completely different from the standard Leopard but still sharing the same forward section profile. BTW> Do the site PTB allow the posting of original artwork based on the unseen art? Note I'm not talking Law; I'm talking site rules. |
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Captain
Posts: 2567
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I'm still stunned by the Corsair and the Galleon; I can't honestly see any difference worth mentioning between the originals and CBT's. You have to remember that 'Mechs are/were the real focus of all of this. Nothing else seemed to matter at the time of the lawsuit. Also, the Corsair has significant differences in detail vs. the Crusher Joe Siren. The overall silhouette is similar (with the exception of the twin tail of the Siren being a single tail on the Corsair) but when you compare them side-by-side the differences stand out. |
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 20560
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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BTW> Do the site PTB allow the posting of original artwork based on the unseen art? Note I'm not talking Law; I'm talking site rules.
Anything you have created yourself is 100% fine. Unless it's made by clipping/sampling from original art, if you see what I mean. W. |
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M.U.L. Team
BT Volunteer
Posts: 26305
Errata Monkey
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Anything you have created yourself is 100% fine. Unless it's made by clipping/sampling from original art, if you see what I mean.
So KatW's digital painting of a Marauder is okay, as are your kitbashes, but a pic cribbed from Palladium's RPG is a non-go? |
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 20560
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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Exactly.
Note that it's posting an image using the [img] tags, or attaching a pic file, which is not allowed. Providing the link to such a picture is allowed.
No, I don't get it either.
W.
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 11768
猫美人
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"Appears on site" probably figures in the thinking. The eye understands what the mind does not, at times.
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Lieutenant
Posts: 1123
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Damn, I didn\'t fully understand the whole Unseen From a story stand point, but legal stand point I did But now after reading this stuff I\'m all confused on the story part. And how come they didn\'t redraw the Unseen for TRO:3039. If someone could Explain or link or Pm me the Project Phoenix history story thing I would greatly appreciate it. I have no clue how I got confused By the thread but I did.
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Lieutenant
Posts: 832
Nelson's Longbows, Defenders of New St. Andrews
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And how come they didn\'t redraw the Unseen for TRO:3039. They wanted to keep the Unseen in history, even if they couldn't in art so no changing what 'mechs looked like. |
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M.U.L. Team
BT Volunteer
Posts: 26305
Errata Monkey
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This isn't the place to post your own minis. Please go back and re-read the first message in the thread.
If you want to display the pics, please create a new thread to do so.
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Lieutenant
Posts: 1415
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to his own health
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You know with all the talk about the Unseen and Reseen I have always wondered why FASA just didn't go to the owners of all the properties (after apologising to Playmates for wasting
everyones time), and ask them for a generous license fee to continue to use the likeness' (and a promise not to be that stupid ever, ever again), instead of leaving those of us that have b
een playing the game for a substanial amount of time with this massive waste of time and energy. It always descends eventually into a shouting match between who thinks FASA were
in the right and those who agree with what actually happened, FASA being in the wrong for not making absolutely sure that they could use the Macross, Dougram and Crusher Joe Mecha
to base their Mechs on
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BattleTech
BattleTech Developer
Posts: 10189
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(and a promise not to be that stupid ever, ever again) Because NOBODY can promise not to be stupid "ever, ever again". Case in point: Humanity keeps breeding... - Herb |
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Lieutenant
Posts: 1415
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to his own health
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Because NOBODY can promise not to be stupid "ever, ever again". Case in point: Humanity keeps breeding...
- Herb
Hence why I said to be that stupid every, every again (though you're right they couldn't promise to never be that stupid ever again ) |
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BattleTech
BattleTech Developer
Posts: 10189
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At any rate, you're right; this IS n old argument, but it only really resurfaces when someone waxes nostalgic about "the good old days". And it only worsens when people begin to forget that not everyone is going to agree with decisions made by people paid to run the game line in as successful and as fiscally responsible a fashion as they see fit.
Decisions will get made. And not everyone will agree with them. This is the bottom line of any argument. Those who feel otherwise are delusional.
As my younger brother put it: As long as there are even two people left in the world, there will be conflict.
- Herb
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Monsters in the Sky!
Moderator
Posts: 20560
Luft Konteradmiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
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You know with all the talk about the Unseen and Reseen I have always wondered why FASA just didn't go to the owners of all the properties (after apologising to Playmates for wasting
everyones time), and ask them for a generous license fee to continue to use the likeness' (and a promise not to be that stupid ever, ever again), One point to consider - Japanese companies operate at cash levels far, far above those of gaming companies. FASA may well have asked Studio Nue for a "real" licence, seen how many zeros were involved, and (when they recovered from their faint) said "Well, thanks, but ..." FASA did many things brilliantly. Managing their business does not appear to have been one of them. I'm pleased to see Catalyst has learned that lesson well. W. |
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Lieutenant
Posts: 1415
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to his own health
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Yeah, that's possible, but you know if the whole Unseen thing didn't come up, we probably would have been past the time were we all went on about how the old designs need redone anyway, cause while everyone loves to wax nostalgic about the good old days (I put up with a fair share of it) everyone loves to play with new toys.
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Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 10983
Hunting for Adder skins
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Yeah, that's possible, but you know if the whole Unseen thing didn't come up, we probably would have been past the time were we all went on about how the old designs need redone anyway, cause while everyone loves to wax nostalgic about the good old days (I put up with a fair share of it) everyone loves to play with new toys.
However, if NOT for the whole Unseen thing, we probably would not have had any designs using the the new TW tech outside of TRO:3050 and TRO:3075...and we definately would have had to have waited longer for them then we did for the RS: Project Phoenix Upgrades. |
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Major
Posts: 4111
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I am going to presume that given today's announcement, this thread is now moot
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